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"You also can't run a business for long with free labour from mates "
Correct.
You quickly find that these mates, even with the best intentions, have their own lives and work commitments and frankly as a mate the last thing you want to do is rely on unpaid labour to get you started.
Of course you can strike a deal, let them do a few odds and sods on their own cars down there but don't let them store their long term projects down there, their total hassle and out of sight out of mind springs to mind.
Look, there was a lot of negativity in my first post and rightly so but the advice I'll offer if your really determined is this: 1. Book every car in and get a good deposit, at least 10/20% of the job cost at the point of quotation. This will seperate the men from the boys, something I never did unfortunately leading to a lot of folk not turning up etc. 2. Your time is ironically your best asset, charge for it, don't say "I can get by on £7 an hour because you may as well work in poundland and mess with your cars on the weekend. 3. Be diverse, you can do wiring mods? Fabrication, drilling etc? Offer towbar fitment, trailer builds etc, great money in that and often quick in and out jobs. 4. No cash no car, only rule I really stuck to apart from once, never really got paid, lost a so called "mate" through it. 5. Breakdown/recovery/movement of projects to the yard? Needs to be charges for at the hourly rate, amazing how many people baulk at this when you present them the bill. I used to rent a trailer @ £20 a day, my fuel etc to go and get the motor, all the hassle of loading a smashed up non driving car and people just thought that was me being kind. I foolishly did that a few times then quickly cottoned on. Amazing how many people started shopping around for cheaper quotes then, pathetic. 6. Flows nicely into point 6, if people see you doing well from something, they often want a bit of that pie. I had this with recovery when an employee of mine decided he could make a cut by using his mates garage as storage/recovery because he knew I was doing well from it. I found out and due to a long list of misdemeanours we parted ways. 7. Which flows nicely to point 7, staff, avoid wherever possible, total nightmare, amazing how quick mates become unprintable lady area parts when cash is involved. 8. Wherever and whenever possible, get suppliers to deliver, I wasted a lot of time driving about getting paint, parts etc. 9. Cheapest is not always best when it comes to suppliers, as poor quality parts and components are always going to require more time to rectify if they don't fit well etc, often not a great deal in it on price. 10. Work out weekly costs and every week, regardless of how well or badly you've done make sure at least that amount is in the business account. Most bills are monthly so you get a good bit of leeway at first but you'll be amazed how quick it gets swallowed up. 11. Cash jobs were king as recently as 5 years ago but in this day and age there not that easy to hide, particularly in the game you are in as a big selling pint of the car is that you've had an engine professionally fitted, so you need a reciept for that. If you've offered it for say 20% less for cash then it's only you that loses out. Fitting a set of pads supplied by the customer and a bit of welding on a saxo? Well, you could certainly put that to cash.
Good luck either way.
As for the get my coat comment above if you've been there and done it successfully then I take my hat off to you. If you haven't then I suggest you do, get the coat that is,keep dreaming.
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Last Edit: Nov 7, 2014 11:58:09 GMT by vaughant
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froggy
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,099
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The guy I use for suspension work on my track car has the best set up for one off work having his shop at home so none of the overheads to worry about . He bills £100 per day plus materials and does anything from ally girl tanks to complete scratch build chassis , Last time my car was in it had a new complete rear end fully rose jointed with new hubs for £1500 which was half what the only other place would roughly quote . Overheads are the killer , I needs to turn over £1100 per day to stand still with 4 staff and a reasonable sized place with 6 ramps and mot lane .
I recently quoted to do a Saab turbo into omega swop which I knew the score and thought £1500 was fair given the exhaust system and tube manifold but the guy was told by several people that it's a weekend job and £500 labour . My own engine conversions which I haven't seen done before have needed a few revisions to make them reliable which will be something to think about as your work will have to be bulletproof unless you enjoy being flamed on the Internet if anything goes wrong
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The guy I use for suspension work on my track car has the best set up for one off work having his shop at home so none of the overheads to worry about . He bills £100 per day plus materials and does anything from ally girl tanks to complete scratch build chassis , Last time my car was in it had a new complete rear end fully rose jointed with new hubs for £1500 which was half what the only other place would roughly quote . Overheads are the killer , I needs to turn over £1100 per day to stand still with 4 staff and a reasonable sized place with 6 ramps and mot lane . I recently quoted to do a Saab turbo into omega swop which I knew the score and thought £1500 was fair given the exhaust system and tube manifold but the guy was told by several people that it's a weekend job and £500 labour . My own engine conversions which I haven't seen done before have needed a few revisions to make them reliable which will be something to think about as your work will have to be bulletproof unless you enjoy being flamed on the Internet if anything goes wrong Absolutely bang on as regards well, everything but particularly the internet price guide comment. Had a guy come in once with an rs turbo escort, rotten, needed thousands of pounds worth of welding/new panels etc. Quoted him £2500, didn't really want the job but a mate who's a good welder was out of work and would have done a great job for about a grand, time it was painted in and out, body mods, parts supplied I thought this was good. He comes back with "well, my budgets £1200, if you can't do it for that, I'll take my custom elsewhere". He came back a day later "have you considered my offer?" So I said, get all the welding done and bring it to me fully stripped and I'll do it for your budget, because as we all know the hard works done then. "Ok he says, there's a guy on the forum who says he pays £10 an hour for welding with sundries". WOW, I'd love to meet that guy. Car got scrapped eventually, And yes, I got an attempted blight campaign by an ex work mate who decided the spray job on his car wouldn't be more than a grand because "the cars only worth £1300". This was for a full in and out job where he turned up everyday to check on progress (another annoying factor of business running) where he continually complained about things like the paint wasn't glossy under the bumper, there were clips broken in the boot (completely untrue), he'd taken it elsewhere that quoted him £550 so were over double that etc etc. I stood up to him and he's never spoken to me again but it backfired on him as the job was great and brought a lot of work in!!! Amazing how, if you call a plumber out or an electrician (my trade) you expect a big bill, when often the work is easy, in a warm house, dry, most boilers have brilliant manuals for fault finding etc. If they quoted you £200 to replace a part costing £15 people never baulk at that, most likely don't question the length of time taken etc, yet when you tell them it's £200 to paint in a scratch down the side of their car, you get the immortal line "but it's only a scratch, won't take you ten minutes".
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120y
Part of things
Posts: 423
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Id say yes cause I need someone like you and I'm in the Essex area Please keep us posted when you get things moving. I'm looking for a sympathetic welder to patch some holes on my Micra let me know
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1996 Renault Clio MK1 1.4 RT Auto
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Having looked through the posts there are some really good points. A couple of things though for the OP. Do you currently work in the restoration trade? Do you have an experience running your own company? If you don't I would STRONGLY recommend that you start there. Work for someone else who has experience and is willing to teach. It's one thing to enjoy it as a hobby, something completely different as a job/business owner.
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Living the dream. Restore's classic car's for a living!
Project Racer: '99 Arosa Project Touge Outlaw: '87 Porsche 924S Project Street sleeper: '95 BMW E34 540i/A Touring Project Mafia: '04 BMW E53 3.0d
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Nathan
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 5,627
Club RR Member Number: 1
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Totally none related but why do you just keep putting . ?
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I deleted my post mate,after reading Vaughant's post and a few others I realised that my post may have been a bit flippant
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There is definitely a market for a classic car restoration & performance mods business, the good ones e.g. Retro Power have big waiting lists. I think there is also a market for doing small jobs for classic car owners who are not very confident about doing work e.g. replacing a brake master cylinder & servo. Some good points made & information given in previous posts.
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1978 Opel Manta SR Berlinetta 1980 Opel Ascona Maximum signature image height: 80 pixels
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gn3dr
Part of things
Posts: 391
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Was looking at doing something similar here myself at various stages. The comments above about not pricing yourself too low are very true. I know where you are coming from though - trying to get a few jobs first which would act as advertising for your work. The problem is though the low price will become the expectation. I think you'd be better off doing your own car up to a high standard and use that as a show piece.
The other thing that worries me about getting into the modifying classic business is the risk of the rug being pulled from under me at the stroke of by the bureaucrats changing laws as to what you can do to a classic car - same comment for the eco warrior government types.
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I think you'd be better off doing your own car up to a high standard and use that as a show piece. A show piece is well worth doing regardless, great way to advertise, get feedback and meet potential customers.
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Still learning...still spending...still breaking things!
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Work out what you need to make to break even. Then add a profit or stop right now. Consider a "not worth getting out of bed for" minimum charge - there's no such thing as a 5-minute job. I've been wondering about an engine conversion for my oddball daily for a few years but by the time I buy a donor, scrap the shell, convert FWD to RWD, physically fit the motor, get the prop & exhaust remade, replumb the fuel & sort out a return line, sort the electrics, then spend a few days sorting gremlins & fine-tuning, I'm guessing minimum £500 parts + 2 weeks work for me doing it myself. The car isn't worth that at "mates rates" never mind "fair commercial rate". Beware lost time discussing plans with dreamers! How many Retro cars are there that need work? How many owners do their own work? Is what's left enough to pay you? Do servicing / MOT work for your main income and offer the Retro / custom bits as an extra service? Typical modernisation items for me are brakes, lights, electric ignition, security, ICE. Performance/economy is good if you can find a way. Consider taking on a stand-by project that you can work on if/when you get slack days. One place I know was doing a customers Mk1 Escort as an 18 month rebuild project at cheap rates. A good diversion for them and a talking point when customers visit Liability insurance for nuns & kittens (will insurers even give you it when you mention non-standard brake changes etc ), the 8 point rules, DVLA tax brackets for engine swaps... I love the idea but think carefully before putting your money on the line.
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vulgalour
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 7,106
Club RR Member Number: 146
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It is a veritable minefield, but with the right attitude and research it can succeed.
There is still space in the market for a business such as the one you describe, pockets seem to be deeper in the south of the country but equally rent and rates are higher to compensate for this. The key appears to be that you do exceptional work at a reasonable (but not cheap) rate and build a good reputation. Customers will get to know and trust you and that will establish you as a successful business.
Luck has as much a part in these things as judgement. Oh, and advertise creatively and expansively, word of mouth gets you so far but if you're after a particular sort of customer you need to scout them out and wave a big flag telling them how awesome you could be for them This post is a good example of that sort of thing.
Most of all, I hope it does work for you. It's obvious you're passionate about this and you seem to be going into it eyes open which is good to see. It won't be easy, but it could just be worth it.
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Last Edit: Nov 8, 2014 4:14:57 GMT by vulgalour
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andyborris
Posted a lot
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose.
Posts: 2,167
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Definitely a market, Rover V8 into Triumph saloon is a thread on a Triumph forum, from someone who's looking for a person/company to do a conversion. However, how to make money from it, much harder I think.....good luck.
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fogey
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,594
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There is definately a market for this - at the moment, whilst the law allows.
I see two problems:
1) Actually tapping into that market 2) With ever stringent legislation curtailing the modification of vehicles - how long will that market be there?
So, on the one hand you need to consider how long would such a business survive relative to the amount of capital you have to invest, on the other hand you could say that if you are going to take the plunge then the sooner you do it the better . . .
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On this point -> Amazing how, if you call a plumber out or an electrician (my trade) you expect a big bill, when often the work is easy, in a warm house, dry, most boilers have brilliant manuals for fault finding etc. If they quoted you £200 to replace a part costing £15 people never baulk at that, most likely don't question the length of time taken etc, yet when you tell them it's £200 to paint in a scratch down the side of their car, you get the immortal line "but it's only a scratch, won't take you ten minutes".
I get the same for fixing laptops, etc. As we all know, it takes a few hours to sort laptops which 'just stop working'. But as someone's brother's kid can fix it for nothing, you are perceived as ripping them off however small the price. Funny that the fix is often a new laptop from a high street store as the old one is suddenly un-fixable.
Back to the topic, starting any business is difficult but exciting at the same time. Take your time, be realistic about what you can do with the time you have, do the basics first and build a good reputation; then start to do the more custom stuff. Do a demo car or whatever to show what you can do and the quality you offer. And oh yes, give upfront pricing for the custom work and remember the customer is paying for your expertise, so charge a decent amount to make it work.
All the best.
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On this point -> Amazing how, if you call a plumber out or an electrician (my trade) you expect a big bill, when often the work is easy, in a warm house, dry, most boilers have brilliant manuals for fault finding etc. If they quoted you £200 to replace a part costing £15 people never baulk at that, most likely don't question the length of time taken etc, yet when you tell them it's £200 to paint in a scratch down the side of their car, you get the immortal line "but it's only a scratch, won't take you ten minutes". I get the same for fixing laptops, etc. As we all know, it takes a few hours to sort laptops which 'just stop working'. But as someone's brother's kid can fix it for nothing, you are perceived as ripping them off however small the price. Funny that the fix is often a new laptop from a high street store as the old one is suddenly un-fixable. Back to the topic, starting any business is difficult but exciting at the same time. Take your time, be realistic about what you can do with the time you have, do the basics first and build a good reputation; then start to do the more custom stuff. Do a demo car or whatever to show what you can do and the quality you offer. And oh yes, give upfront pricing for the custom work and remember the customer is paying for your expertise, so charge a decent amount to make it work. All the best. Thats because lots of people judge certain types of work only in terms of the cost of raw materials, regardless of the skill level involved and the length of time to acquire those skills.
To the OP, have a look at the work of other classic/ modified car builders with an established reputation in your region and ask yourself "are you as good or better than they are"? I don't mean that in any way to be offensive or question your abilities, but potential customers will be asking the same question before they had over their cash and P&J.
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froggy
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,099
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I can't remember speaking to anyone at shows, track days etc with a classic who didn't do pretty much all their own work with the exception of paint and welding which would be the bulk of the work out there and the quality expected v what people are prepared to pay is usually a long way apart especially on cheap classics . Had a quiet day in Friday and did a small repair on the inner sill of my camper but did it the proper way shaping and letting it in so it was 100% factory looking which took 5hrs and would have to charge £180 if it was a customers which most would consider steep for a patch but that's the difference between a quick repair and proper restoration
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Some great points on this thread. How about conducting a technical exercise for yourself? (The op). Work out what are popular conversions (like the rover v8, volvo t5, ford zetec etc) and do one. I'd say a good example would be as your a volvo man a t5 motor/Renault 2.0 16v into the 340, time it from start to finish as in research, collecting parts, actual conversion time, snagging jobs etc, put it up for sale to gauge approximate value and see in the real world how long it takes you. As I said before so easy to overlook simple things like finding a suitable donor, stripping out the donor, stripping out the other motor, recovery, day insurance to pick the donor up etc etc. Bet you'll be surprised at £40 an hour just how much it adds up to, I'd guess £2000 in labour minimum at garage rates.
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bazzateer
Posted a lot
Imping along sans Vogue
Posts: 3,653
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I deleted my post mate,after reading Vaughant's post and a few others I realised that my post may have been a bit flippant Flippant Neil? Never! That's usually my thing!
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1968 Singer Chamois Sport 1972 Sunbeam Imp Sport 1976 Datsun 260Z 2+2 1998 Peugeot Boxer Pilote motorhome 2003 Rover 75 1.8 Club SE (daily) 2006 MG ZT 190+ (another daily) 2007 BMW 530d Touring M Sport (tow car)
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