is there a market for modernisations of classic vehicles...

[MaDSeB]

To my fellow retro riders, and members of the classic car community.
I wonder if you could help me,

An opportunity has arisen, to potentially do something I have wanted to for a very long time, start my own workshop, and turn what I do for fun into a potential business.

I have been offered a secure, powered unit just outside of the m25 in the Essex area, very local, in a prime location, with ample facilities, to turn into a workshop and for years I have been toying with the idea of doing vehicles as some sort of business.
now skills and materials/labour and storage are not an issue, as I have quite a wide range of pals who are willing to lend a hand for free/beer. unfortunately the unit comes with some rather costly overheads (rent, services etc)

so my question at the moment is:
do you feel their is enough demand for this sort of service? or am I still chasing dreams?

now, the services offered, will be at a considerable discount over other garages while we establish a client base, but primarily we would like to focus on the following:

modern engine transplants into classic vehicles:
turn key conversions, with all exhaust/fuel and electrical systems fabricated to suit.
restoration of classic vehicles to owners specifications.
modernization of classic vehicles (retro fit power steering/electric windows/heating ect)
large brake adaption kits.
coil over conversions/ arch rolling, metal fabrication. (the sky's the limit when it comes to this really, as i have a very talented metal fabricator I can call upon.
wheel adaptions, one off custom builds, paint and bodywork (in the long run)
as well, as the general servicing to help keep these classics on the road





so, would you consider it to minimal a market for this, or is their a potential gap for a good, reliable, specialist garage to move in?
I have added a poll, as simple yes or no answers, and for those who may be interested in this service.

I welcome, any feedback be it negative or positive, as long as it is constructive.

thanks

Madseb

no post is complete without pics:
so have some humble offerings in the form of some of my past projects:

Volvo 340/ rx7 big brake/coilover conversion components ready for fabrication


wheels painted up for a previous project:


one of my current fleet:


Volvo 340 rear brake conversion, and duel anti tramp bars (still in development)

[steveo3002]

sounds okay , i try and diy all my own stuff as i have more time than money , but I'm sure if you can do what you promise on time then people will use you

good luck

[composimmonite]

As always biggest problem will be liability insurance. You can't get around the fact you will be "supplier" of the products and services you provide so whilst I'd say "go for it" don't forget the liability insurance aspect as that could the be killer of the idea.

[MaDSeB]

It has allready been factored in, but i appreciate your input. Thankyou.

[colnerov]

Hi, I would think lots of people, as has been said, will want to do it themselves. There are some people who can't and will want this service. But until you can connect with them you will have to do "bread and butter" work. If you put the same effort in and maintain quality and good service, the best part will come in time. Good luck.

Colin

[Del]

I've said Yes because you're not going to be far from me

[v8ian]

I would say be very aware of the 8 points, its a minefield out there,

[gurnersimps1963]

.

[gary1998]

there's a guy over here puts merc diesel engine and gearbox's into all sorts of retro lux barges
and cant keep up with the demand

[waveman1500]

Anything like that will hinge on the reputation of the business. I would be very careful with the idea of offering big discounts at the start, you want to be known for quality, not having the lowest price.

If you are doing major work like engine swaps and wiring, you obviously will need to make sure you can get it done quickly and smoothly to keep the customer happy. I'm not sure about the UK, but in Australia nobody will ever give a quote for a complicated job, they will give you their hourly rate and then say, "It would normally take about x hours, but if I find any problems then it will take longer."
Personally, this makes me nervous as a customer, but I can clearly see that it is necessary to prevent them from going broke if they accidentally snap a bolt or something.

[froggy]

The only one off work I do now is epas conversions and custom sumps as it's known work for me and the steering conversions are mainly camper vans which are all worth a few quid to start with so £500 isn't a lot on a 15k vw bus .

Classics are such a tiny percentage of what's on the road and the people who don't do their own maintenance and modification and have the disposable income to pay the real costs involved are smaller still . The other factor is how much of your time is going to be wasted on the phone with dreamers or time spent going over someone's car and coming up with a cost that's acceptable as no one wants to pay for your time if it comes to nothing .

[ray900tap]

100% a market for skilled labour, I've worked for a few company's doing exactly this line of work..
A company building mainly fords, mk1 mk2 escorts, some fantastic builds..
Another building the Jensen interceptor s's (built the first proto type "S")
A VW camper firm building bespoke campers
All great company's (until greed got the better of the proprietors!)
I say that as standards can slip in the chase for money! Be wary, as it can happen
The Thing I learnt about customers who we catered for, as long as your honest, know what your at, do your research! They'll part with the necessary funds to complete their build, or works..
I now work for Hightone restorations, our builds are extremely detailed, and as such seem expensive, but a great relationship with the customer from the start is really what makes each build happen..
It can be a mine field, sometimes you'll cross dreamers who can't afford their dreams, the skill is not getting into a situation where your owed dangerous amounts of money for completed work..
Also, price your work fairly to you! And the costumer! No use in pricing a job to get the work if it nearly breaks you!
All you'll do is either bust your firm, stress any you have working for you, cut corners, annoy the customer, non of these will build a decent firm with a good reputation..

The friends helping out, my best mate runs such a firm, (auto projects) I few of us try and help out when a where possible, it's hard, and in truth sometimes we let him down, we all have full time jobs, and our own life's..

A quality job takes time! The only thing you acheive in a rush is a mess...

Very best if luck!

[pablopancake]

my mate does exactly this and is pretty darn successful but............

The business has many different areas including a website and a walk in shop, their own design and sourced products, a huge stock of fasteners and parts but what really sets it apart is it's a family affair and they work their collective nadgers off to make it happen, and I mean pretty much 18 hours a day 7 days a week

check them out

aseriesspares.co.uk/

All the best with whatever you decide to do.

[MaDSeB]

A big thankyou to all who have commented, some valid points have been raised.
I really wasnt expecting so much feedback so soon. This is why i love this community.thanks retrorides.

[Woofwoof]

Nov 6, 2014 15:19:16 GMT MaDSeB said:

so my question at the moment is:
do you feel their is enough demand for this sort of service? or am I still chasing dreams?

now, the services offered, will be at a considerable discount over other garages while we establish a client base, but primarily we would like to focus on the following:

modern engine transplants into classic vehicles:
turn key conversions, with all exhaust/fuel and electrical systems fabricated to suit.
restoration of classic vehicles to owners specifications.
modernization of classic vehicles (retro fit power steering/electric windows/heating ect)
large brake adaption kits.
coil over conversions/ arch rolling, metal fabrication. (the sky's the limit when it comes to this really, as i have a very talented metal fabricator I can call upon.
wheel adaptions, one off custom builds, paint and bodywork (in the long run)
as well, as the general servicing to help keep these classics on the road

My gut feeling is to specialise in a particular model, brand or area rather than trying to cover all bases.  I'm well aware that has limitations initially but it may put you on the 'map' sooner than a non specialist. And forget about 'considerable discounts', just charge a fair price so you'll stay in business and be there for repeat customers. You could just set up as a general garage first so you've got the bread & butter money coming in and then branch out running both sides of the business together. It's the first couple of years that are really important to make any business long term.  That's just my 2p's worth.  



    

[vaughant]

Sadly, this is a negative post, but one from the heart and believe me it's taken until pretty much last year and a job earning me £75-80k a year to get myself financially straight.

Be extremely careful considering a hobby as a job, as I found out the hardest way possible it doesn't work, and I had £50k behind me to do it, lost the lot and a bit more besides.

My story starts with redundancy, trying to get a car re sprayed and putting 2+2 together and coming up with 39!!!
2009, big recession on admittedly, which frankly were still in baby steps to come out of,i took over a paint spraying business.
The business was literally flat out, but I very quickly found out why, you simply could not make a profit, even break even the prices the sprayer (who I kept on)was quoting.
Revamped the place, bought a ton of equipment but the simple fact is, there's not many people out there that think the same way as us, they have an idea of price in their mind and that is often wildly inaccurate as to the true cost of what it takes to produce quality work.
Admittedly your in a slightly different field but before you've started your making a lot of big mistakes, the biggest being pricing work low, what's the point? To build up a client base of losers who want stuff done off your back, your talents, expertise for nothing? And believe me they will STILL complain and heaven forbid you have to tell them it costs MORE than you first quoted.
What are the unit costs per day?
Materials?
Electricity?
Business rates?
Insurances?
I calculated it was around £16000 a year just to run the unit I had which was 1715sq ft, amazing all the hidden costs, buildings insurance, service contract, phone, t'interweb (granted that can be avoided a bit now) so call it a conservative £50 a day, everyday of the year just to keep the lights on and you on the right side of the taxman because you don't want him breathing down your neck.
What do you currently earn? The average mechanic takes home about £400 a week say? Pre tax probably £500.
So call it £150 a day just to pay yourself a modest/ average wage and keep the lights on.
Forget Xmas, new year and a fortnight or so in the summer, complete non starters, often you can rule out January in the car trade, many businesses I knew shut down in Jan for the whole month so now your spreading that £100 a day salary out over 48 weeks,so your needing more like £150 a day to cover the lean times.
Restoration/engine swaps can be time consuming and often major problems can happen that are unforeseen where you end up spending long hours and days just trying to rectify, yet unable to really pass those costs on to the customer as they're not part of the original quote, hassle.
Also, due to the time consuming nature of the work you could be waiting weeks for payment.
What sort of a warranty are you offering for the conversion?
Engineers reports?
Are you sourcing the engines for the vehicles yourself, or leaving it to the client?
Either way there are complications. You source it and it goes bang, are you liable? They source it and it turns out to be junk/unsuitable, they've either wasted your time or they expect you to pull the proverbial rabbit out of the hat and sort it.

I'm really sorry that not being positive about this but when your sat on Xmas day crying because you spent your last £60 in the world on a crappy present for your son who basically had the most pathetic xmas in 14 yrs it doesn't seem such a good idea anymore (he's done pretty well since mind you!!!).

Personal circumstances do play a part, if you live with mam, have no real overheads/commitments then it maybe worth a gamble, if you don't put much into it then maybe you can walk away pretty unscathed if it goes wrong, there's also plenty of people out there making a good living from it but be aware a business is a 24/7 commitment and my god do you get idiots phoning at all hours of the day " oh mush, how much to put a turbo on my corsa 1.2??? I've read on the internet I should "budget" £300".

Ultimately, it's your descision but this nonsense of "if you don't try, you'll never know" is total tripe and poppycock from mainly people who have never done it.

Facts are facts, work out the cost down to the penny, literally, work out what your worth and how many hours are in a day to do the work as based on eight hours of work booked in a day, 6 days a week your gonna need to be into £40/50 an hour to make it viable in my eyes,£1500 a week or so, £300 odd a day and then you'll be doing ten hours time you open up, clean up, close up, do your paperwork etc, it can be a nightmare.

Good luck with whatever you decide, but please please please consider it all very carefully.

[vaughant]

Just had one quick more positive thought.

Towards the end of my business, last 6 months or so, I did a lot of mot work, welding, lights, bushes etc. To be honest it kept me afloat and was a pretty good earner as of course an mot is an essential item hence people have to get it done, you make a bit on the ticket as well as most garages do a good discount for regular customers, I made £20 just to drive it down and drop it off, they were handy as a storage yard if it got a bit tight in the workshop too if you timed it right!!!!

Perhaps do something a tad more mainstream and offer the engine conversions as a sideline, be clear and concise with your prices like say fitting a t5 engine into a 240, £1500 labour plus parts, fitting EPAS into a mk3 escort, £500 and so on, gives the person an idea before even phoning up.

[gurnersimps1963]

.

[avengertec]

Nov 7, 2014 1:13:21 GMT vaughant said:

Sadly, this is a negative post, but one from the heart and believe me it's taken until pretty much last year and a job earning me £75-80k a year to get myself financially straight.

Be extremely careful considering a hobby as a job, as I found out the hardest way possible it doesn't work, and I had £50k behind me to do it, lost the lot and a bit more besides.

My story starts with redundancy, trying to get a car re sprayed and putting 2+2 together and coming up with 39!!!
2009, big recession on admittedly, which frankly were still in baby steps to come out of,i took over a paint spraying business.
The business was literally flat out, but I very quickly found out why, you simply could not make a profit, even break even the prices the sprayer (who I kept on)was quoting.
Revamped the place, bought a ton of equipment but the simple fact is, there's not many people out there that think the same way as us, they have an idea of price in their mind and that is often wildly inaccurate as to the true cost of what it takes to produce quality work.
Admittedly your in a slightly different field but before you've started your making a lot of big mistakes, the biggest being pricing work low, what's the point? To build up a client base of losers who want stuff done off your back, your talents, expertise for nothing? And believe me they will STILL complain and heaven forbid you have to tell them it costs MORE than you first quoted.
What are the unit costs per day?
Materials?
Electricity?
Business rates?
Insurances?
I calculated it was around £16000 a year just to run the unit I had which was 1715sq ft, amazing all the hidden costs, buildings insurance, service contract, phone, t'interweb (granted that can be avoided a bit now) so call it a conservative £50 a day, everyday of the year just to keep the lights on and you on the right side of the taxman because you don't want him breathing down your neck.
What do you currently earn? The average mechanic takes home about £400 a week say? Pre tax probably £500.
So call it £150 a day just to pay yourself a modest/ average wage and keep the lights on.
Forget Xmas, new year and a fortnight or so in the summer, complete non starters, often you can rule out January in the car trade, many businesses I knew shut down in Jan for the whole month so now your spreading that £100 a day salary out over 48 weeks,so your needing more like £150 a day to cover the lean times.
Restoration/engine swaps can be time consuming and often major problems can happen that are unforeseen where you end up spending long hours and days just trying to rectify, yet unable to really pass those costs on to the customer as they're not part of the original quote, hassle.
Also, due to the time consuming nature of the work you could be waiting weeks for payment.
What sort of a warranty are you offering for the conversion?
Engineers reports?
Are you sourcing the engines for the vehicles yourself, or leaving it to the client?
Either way there are complications. You source it and it goes bang, are you liable? They source it and it turns out to be junk/unsuitable, they've either wasted your time or they expect you to pull the proverbial rabbit out of the hat and sort it.

I'm really sorry that not being positive about this but when your sat on Xmas day crying because you spent your last £60 in the world on a crappy present for your son who basically had the most pathetic xmas in 14 yrs it doesn't seem such a good idea anymore (he's done pretty well since mind you!!!).

Personal circumstances do play a part, if you live with mam, have no real overheads/commitments then it maybe worth a gamble, if you don't put much into it then maybe you can walk away pretty unscathed if it goes wrong, there's also plenty of people out there making a good living from it but be aware a business is a 24/7 commitment and my god do you get idiots phoning at all hours of the day " oh mush, how much to put a turbo on my corsa 1.2??? I've read on the internet I should "budget" £300".

Ultimately, it's your descision but this nonsense of "if you don't try, you'll never know" is total tripe and poppycock from mainly people who have never done it.

Facts are facts, work out the cost down to the penny, literally, work out what your worth and how many hours are in a day to do the work as based on eight hours of work booked in a day, 6 days a week your gonna need to be into £40/50 an hour to make it viable in my eyes,£1500 a week or so, £300 odd a day and then you'll be doing ten hours time you open up, clean up, close up, do your paperwork etc, it can be a nightmare.

Good luck with whatever you decide, but please please please consider it all very carefully.

THIS ^^^^^^^^
You also can't run a business for long with free labour from mates

[ratchart]

Nov 6, 2014 19:20:04 GMT v8ian said:

I would say be very aware of the 8 points, its a minefield out there,

My first thought too.

It's one thing for an individual to build their own car which may or may not conform to the letter of the law. it's their vehicle and they can find out what the rules are, make up their own minds whether they want to follow them and take the consequences of that decision.

However if you're building cars for customers you will presumably have more knowledge and skills than them and part of that should include knowing what is or isn't permissable under the law and advising the customers accordingly. I know there are some professional builders who don't regard that sort of thing as part of their remit, but if a customer asks you to do some work to their car which you know wil make it difficult or impossible to register legally what would you do?

Think of the nuns, kittens etc....