adam73bgt
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,864
Club RR Member Number: 58
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Nov 12, 2014 18:45:00 GMT
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I think the shared inlet and siamesed exhaust ports of the B series really limit your efficiency gains. I think some have dabbled with Fuel Injection but its not cheap, have a look on the MGexperience website for more info www.mgexp.com/phorum/list.php?1To be honest, if you must stick with the B series then just get the ignition timing as controlled as possible (probably using megajolt which I plan on doing for my MGB in the future) and get it breathing as well as possible with some light head mods. Couple that with some properly tuned carbs and you might be able to get 85% or so of the way to your target. I'm not sure how much a Princess weighs but some MGB owners are claiming to get 30mpg on a run from their cars Though it would just be easier to buy an O series Princess in the first place?..
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Nov 12, 2014 20:49:48 GMT
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Renault (4 GTL) and BMW (327 ETA) build some eco versions of their models in the 70/80s.
Which were basically large capacity low tuned engines with the focus on 'big' torque. Combined with low revs and long dif ratio they got better fuel economy. Overlay this on a B-series, you would be looking at a 2liter with 90hp and max rpm of 4500-5000rpm.
But I recon a mildy tuned B-series (carb, head and exhaust) would be more fun to drive and not really more uneconomical than earlier described eco engine spec.
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djefk
Part of things
Posts: 844
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Nov 13, 2014 12:33:06 GMT
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I think the shared inlet and siamesed exhaust ports of the B series really limit your efficiency gains. I think some have dabbled with Fuel Injection but its not cheap, have a look on the MGexperience website for more info www.mgexp.com/phorum/list.php?1To be honest, if you must stick with the B series then just get the ignition timing as controlled as possible (probably using megajolt which I plan on doing for my MGB in the future) and get it breathing as well as possible with some light head mods. Couple that with some properly tuned carbs and you might be able to get 85% or so of the way to your target. I'm not sure how much a Princess weighs but some MGB owners are claiming to get 30mpg on a run from their cars Though it would just be easier to buy an O series Princess in the first place?.. Thanks Adam, you may be right on that last point, although the O series isn't much more efficient than B series from the research I've done and there is a wealth of standard and uprated parts available to rebuild the B cheaply as you know. Also according to the links the siamesed ports present a challenge but not a blocker for what I want to achieve. Really I'm just looking for economy tuning mod advice that will also release power too.
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Last Edit: Nov 13, 2014 12:46:01 GMT by djefk
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Nov 13, 2014 15:05:03 GMT
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Hi, economy and power go hand in hand, they are just opposite sides of the coin. Tuning for power is just making the engine more efficient, if you don't use it for harder acceleration and use a lighter throttle you will get economy. Actually the best gauge to fit is a vacuum gauge, that will tell you if you are driving economically, it's surprising how much throttle you are using than you need to when cruising on the motorway.
Colin
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Siert
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,104
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Nov 13, 2014 19:54:59 GMT
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sowen Ford EDIS seems to be a popular system for retrofitting, but many modern cars run coil-on-plug systems. Once you have the electronic drivers needed for EDIS surely you should also be able to run coil-on-plug? Why is it not as popular for retrofitting? Would it potentially be more efficient? Apologies to the original poster for hijacking his thread, but I thought this may be interesting to him as well. I like this idea, and I like that you're trying to stick with the original engine. Buying a new (diesel) engine would be easier, and in fact buying a more fuel economical car would be even easier, but I understand that's not what you're trying to do...
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sowen
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,245
Club RR Member Number: 24
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Nov 13, 2014 21:27:57 GMT
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sowen Ford EDIS seems to be a popular system for retrofitting, but many modern cars run coil-on-plug systems. Once you have the electronic drivers needed for EDIS surely you should also be able to run coil-on-plug? Why is it not as popular for retrofitting? Would it potentially be more efficient? The Ford EDIS system is completely self contained in that it will run an engine on carbs with no input apart from power and an earth. The Megajolt ecu simply gives an ignition advance map to make the system run properly, I think it was designed around the EDIS system and so will not work on anything else. Coil on plug requires a far more advanced management system, Megasquirt is capable of controlling coilpacks and COP's directly, but the cost for the basic ecu is much much higher.
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djefk
Part of things
Posts: 844
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Makes sense sowen, Maybe in that case I should approach this project in this order - convert the ignition system once I've done the head and exhaust and get the lot set up on the rolling road with the standard carburetion setup, then enjoy the car a while to keep mojo levels high and build up technical knowledge and confidence, then start planning a change to FI and collecting bits to do this for when I'm ready. Sound good everyone? I take it there's a way of hooking up a smiths rev counter to this setup however? Siert, no problem, the whole reason I posted this thread was to bounce ideas, as you say I'm interested to see what can be achieved with the original engine and so retain some of the early Princess character, somehow an engine swap just doesn't appeal. colnerov you are spot on, however I'm led to believe some mods help torque rather than outright power, so this is what I'm going for, hence my question about whether keeping the inlet valves and ports standard whilst enlarging the exhausts as David Vizard's recommends for building an economy-focused A series would work on a B too. I don't see why it wouldn't work but I wondered if anyone had done this before. I have used a vacuum gauge to monitor driving style before and I agree with you - I will be fitting one, plus I have one of those naff 70s sparkrite voyager fuel computers that uses a widget in the fuel line before the carb and a magnetic pickup that clips to the speedo to calculate fuel consumption if I get really serious, although that won't work with FI I don't think. Click & scroll down for picsOh, and adam73bgt, a Princess and a MGB GT weight almost exactly the same at 1100kg, believe it or not (I had to double check!), so as I drive pretty carefully I was thinking 35 mpg should be within easy reach, I was even hoping for 40 mpg eventually but that'd be much more of a challenge.
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Last Edit: Nov 14, 2014 6:22:16 GMT by djefk
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Kieran
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,092
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The edis unit is designed to fire a 'dumb' coil pack, and only has 2 outputs to fire the coil in a wasted spark fashion.
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The Ashby Jackson fleet:-
1979 Mini Clubman 1.8 K series 1978 Skoda 110r Project 130RS K-oupe 1978 Austin Allegro 1500 SDL Estate 1984 BMW K100 Sidecar outfit 1999 Yamaha FZS 1000 Fazer 1991 Kawasaki ZXR400 race bike 2002 Kawasaki ZX9r race bike
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adam73bgt
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,864
Club RR Member Number: 58
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Oh, and adam73bgt, a Princess and a MGB GT weight almost exactly the same at 1100kg, believe it or not (I had to double check!), so as I drive pretty carefully I was thinking 35 mpg should be within easy reach, I was even hoping for 40 mpg eventually but that'd be much more of a challenge. Aha yeahh the MGB is pretty heavy for its age and size You've got me wondering about this now, would a single carb or twin carbs be better for economy? What did the Princess' B series come fitted with?
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mylittletony
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,339
Club RR Member Number: 84
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I would imagine that if you're determined to keep the B-series, then a 'stage 0' tune would you be your best bet to begin with, followed by some efforts to make it breathe better (head, exhaust, inlet)
As for carbs, weber twin chokes (progressive downdraft, not DCOE) are well known for a good power/economy balance, could be an idea.
If you still feel the need for FI, would a later M or T-series setup be retrofittable?
Ultimately, the best improvement will be a good final drive ratio
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sowen
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,245
Club RR Member Number: 24
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Makes sense sowen, Maybe in that case I should approach this project in this order - convert the ignition system once I've done the head and exhaust and get the lot set up on the rolling road with the standard carburetion setup, then enjoy the car a while to keep mojo levels high and build up technical knowledge and confidence, then start planning a change to FI and collecting bits to do this for when I'm ready. Sound good everyone? I take it there's a way of hooking up a smiths rev counter to this setup however? The way I see it is it's your project, time and money, do your research and do what your most comfortable doing. That being said, if you have plans of forced induction in the future, then it would be worth looking at complete engine management right from the start and only use the ignition side of things while you run it on the carbs. The Megasquirt I am fitting will be controlling just the spark for a while as I get my head round the settings in the tuning software and finish the engine loom. I'll have some sensors fitted so can monitor the engine with it running the factory efi to see how that is working, hopefully learning as I go . If you were to go directly to a complete management system then I believe most of them can run coilpacks or even coil-on-plug directly so no need for the Ford EDIS system. The EDIS is however a good starting point for beginners. I find the mappable ignition system to be quite easy to fiddle with, nothing to stop you from getting that fitted first, or during the cylinder head work? The good thing about coilpack ignition is that while setting up and there's a problem, just swap the leads over to the distributer! There are ways to run pulse sensing rev counters, I don't know if it's possible to drive current sensing rev counters?
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sowen
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,245
Club RR Member Number: 24
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As for an engine swap from the B-series, the Princess has a sump gearbox like the Mini, is the crankshaft also unique to the fwd B-series like the Mini crankshaft is? Also, I can't remember exactly, but the backplate bolt spacing on the engine block should be the same from the B-series through the O-series upto the M/T-seies, but is the sump flange the same? I seem to remember there was some significant re-engineering done to the engine in the transition from B to O-series, mainly in the camshaft and cylinder spacing/capacity?
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Nov 14, 2014 10:53:29 GMT
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The B Series is a "boat anchor". It was never a powerful or economical engine in standard form and when modified for more power (say as MGB version) the economy gets worse - not better. You can chuck massive amounts of money at the engine for very little gain if you want BOTH more power and better economy. Far better to accept from the start it's not a viable project and a engine swop to an O Series from either another Princess or Ambassador is the direction you should be going. Then there is the option of injection, LPG, seeing if possible to adapt a M or T Series head etc. I've just removed the 1800TC Marina B Series lump from my Marlin and am replacing it with a 1275 out of my Sprite. The end result will be an improvement all round - lighter engine so better weight distribution (Marlin was originally designed around the 1300 Triumph lump to give 50:50 weight distribution), better power to weight ratio, better economy and lastly whilst torque (one of the few advantages B series has over the A Series) will decrease power not much difference ! For more miles for your money (not economy) you can't beat LPG conversion simply because the "fuel" is cheaper. Twin carbs, Webber or injection don't really make much difference if you go the LPG route as it's the LPG distribution that needs "tweaking" whereas carbs & injection affect the petrol. If you insist on keeping the B Series I'd research LPG conversions as thinsg needed to optimise LPG economy and performance are different to petrol ie higher compression ration desirable whereas the it's be too high for petrol. ignition timing is also different for LPG.
Good luck and have fun playing
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Colonelk
Posted a lot
Posts: 3,740
Club RR Member Number: 83
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Nov 14, 2014 12:28:09 GMT
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Last Edit: Nov 14, 2014 12:30:18 GMT by Colonelk
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Nov 14, 2014 13:31:45 GMT
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Hi, There is a difference between power and torque, if you increase power it comes at the cost of torque. From what I remember from years ago, for power you have bigger inlet valves and for torque you keep them small. There is no such thing as a free lunch, no one single thing will be a cure all. It is just a case of lots a of little things. Sowen is right about fitting Lambda sensor as this will enable you to see what you are achieving as you go along on your quest. Good to see you are using what you have got, it will help with your understanding of it all.
Colin
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Nathan
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 5,626
Club RR Member Number: 1
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Nov 14, 2014 14:51:24 GMT
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Economy and cheap don't really go hand in hand with the B-Series, been there with Performance route and the early modifications are the same (Also not cheap at all). Ok get it breathing better and you may get a couple of .0x MPG out of it. If you really want to keep it, why not loose some weight in the car? I am not talking Bare race spec interior here, just bits that don't get used.
Don't get me wrong I love the B-Series and that unit served me well in the GT for years and years (I spend thousands on the engine too), but now I get better power and better MPG. Was the Princess B-series like the later MGB version with bigger Valves?
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Last Edit: Nov 14, 2014 14:53:16 GMT by Nathan
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Nov 14, 2014 17:24:15 GMT
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Really, to do justice to the advanced looking (for it's day) Princess it needs a more modern engine regardless of looking for more torque and better MPG. Far cheaper in the long run and without doubt make a far better & nicer car out of it.
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Still learning...still spending...still breaking things!
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Nov 14, 2014 18:01:49 GMT
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If project fails you could always stick a Rover V8 on top of that gearbox.
Are there other (longer) diff ratios available for the Princess gearbox.
BL made the A-series a little bit more economical with the A+ (more torque, relatively) and the HLE (longer diff, higher compression) version of the Mini.
You can put any tuning mod on the B-series as long you stay away from twin carbs and long duration cams you should affect economy at part throttle.
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doobie
Part of things
Posts: 271
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Nov 14, 2014 18:34:33 GMT
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I remember reading that a guy in the states stripped out the fuel stuff from a set of SU carbs and used them as throttle bodies then added injectors and a fuel rail that would be an interesting set up and not one i have seen this side of the pond... cant find the link right now though.
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Nov 14, 2014 18:54:55 GMT
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One big advantage with Ford EDIS is it is effectively a separate brain from the ECU and you can limp home with a fixed 10°BTDC assuming just power and a functioning trigger wheel signal should the Megajolt go wrong. I don't know of any other OEM units that have that same degree of separation. It can also auto adjust its dwell angle to suit non-Ford coils or multiple coils in parallel (within reason) and it can even be made to fire multiple times at low RPM which might help with efficiently scavenging the exhaust gasses (though you wont be able to connect a pulse type tacho direct to it if you use that feature).
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