fred
Posted a lot
WTF has happened to all the Vennies?
Posts: 2,957
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If they have all been declared 'scrap' on their V5's
Cant see how they can be brought back onto the road, not without the DVLA doing a lot of paperwork for each car, and you know the DVLA loves doing paperwork !!!
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'79 Cossie ran Cortina - Sold
2000 Fozzer 2.0 turbo snow beast
'85 Opel Manta GSI - Sold
03 A class Mercedes
Looking for a FD Ventora - Anyone?
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fogey
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,592
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Guess the object of the scrappage scheme was to get older cars off the road so allowing any of them back onto the road would be defeating the object.
Shame though it is.
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I can't see the petition succeeding but I think a better idea would be to persuade the Government, particularly the Chancellor, that they are worth a fortune and he'd soon be arranging to sell them off.
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fred
Posted a lot
WTF has happened to all the Vennies?
Posts: 2,957
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I can't see the petition succeeding but I think a better idea would be to persuade the Government, particularly the Chancellor, that they are worth a fortune and he'd soon be arranging to sell them off. Considering they are borrowing a god knows how many millions a day - this lot is pennies down the back of the sofa
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'79 Cossie ran Cortina - Sold
2000 Fozzer 2.0 turbo snow beast
'85 Opel Manta GSI - Sold
03 A class Mercedes
Looking for a FD Ventora - Anyone?
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mylittletony
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,342
Club RR Member Number: 84
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I assume you're talking about this place: retrorides.proboards.com/thread/105165The scrappage scheme was years ago. Do you think someone is paying storage for scrap cars to sit for 4/5 years? Why would they reverse one of their "green" policies? The daily mail would tear them a new @rsehole for letting all those 'polluting' & 'dangerous' old cars back on the road. Middle England votes are what they care about. The e-petition is severely lacking in info. Also bare in mind that 3million people took to the streets demanding the country didn't go to war, and the government didn't listen, what makes you think a few thousand (if you're lucky) mouse clicks will have any effect? Write to your mp, with some numbers and information to give the idea some gravitas.
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Okay I'm all in favour of people doing something to get something changed, however I agree with the others on the whole e-petition being useless thing, particularly in low numbers. The old Modus Operandi used to have a thing about how posting petitions wasn't a good idea, and giving alternatives. To get something like this changed you need something done in the Houses Of Parliament. To get something done in the HoP you need an MP to forward the motion/bill/debate, there are three/four ways to do this: 1) Popular Opinion, this is where petitions actually come in, but the volume needs to be very very high 1.1) Popular opinion as illustrated by the media (doesn't actually need to be popular opinion, just needs to look like it) 2) Monetary Interest, this is why people donate to parties for control, why MPs take bungs and why the needs of commerce are often put above that of normal people. Handily though this is what you can appeal to for our kind of hobby "it is worthy £XYZ a year", "it brings in £ABC Tax", "it supports QWE jobs" ... this is what pOg was referring to by well reasoned research 3) Local and Personal Interest, MPs are people too with hobbies and interesst, find an MP that agrees with you about a subject and you can often get a question in front of the HoP, or you can try and frame it as a local issue (all these old cars make for affordable transport, local company could make money recommissioning them etc. etc.) and they will be keen to put forward the question/motion etc. Anything else is just curse word in the wind I'm afraid. Your quickest method would be to research and approach it via option 3, www.theyworkforyou.com/ will give you your local MPs. It would be useful for us as car enthusiasts to know which MPs are also car enthusiasts, there are a few, I think there is a Westminster Classic Car group of some kind. Would be good to know who to invite to The Gathering ... in the mean time I'll continue working on getting to the position where I can leverage 2 as my options of enacting change So 10/10 for doing something, 5/10 for the approach, but with a bit of effort and a fair wind you can turn that in to a solid 8 or 9
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Last Edit: Mar 7, 2015 10:37:06 GMT by HoTWire
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Hi, the government paid £1000 each for these cars and got the manufacturers to forego £1000 off the price of a new car. Can you imagine the grief from media and manufacturers if they released these car back into the wild? This was all 5 years ago and I would think the cars are long gone now. So why are we still torturing our selves over this?
Colin
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whysub
Part of things
Posts: 65
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I remember someone trying to start an E - petition to stop Tom Cleverly being selected to the England football squad.
I really don't know why it was rejected.
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pcj
Part of things
Posts: 203
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MY OH MY! No wonder citizen protest and democracy doesn't get anything done.
The guy raised a warning cry "Injuns!" and it had to bring out bickering instead of "Thanks mate, give your post a bit of polish like this ",,blah blah,,,," and there's just a chance it might have more impact".
The sentry has shouted a warning, you want chapter and verse get yourself on the obs post and take details, don't berate the sentry because he hasn't yet got their names and email addresses! Next time he may make his typing more succinct and leave out the space.
To those who've signed the petition: well done, at least you gave it a go. Don't forget to look out for the confirmation email from the petition site. Until you've got that and acknowledged it you haven't actually signed!
BTW there is a site: change.org that presents petitions via email to the great unwashed. Might be an idea to get this one onto there. Contrary to prevailing belief some of the e-petitions on there do get action.
Looking at the link to the RAE Bedford Google pic makes one sad and angry: at the sheer waste of tax-payer's money to bribe people to buy a new car (mostly foreign imports btw) and also the millions used to build RAE Bedford (just consider the engineering and concrete alone in all those runways and taxiways) which is now essentially surplus.
More worrying is just who stands to benefit from all that accumulated metal: are they holding it back to release it slowly so as to get the best scrap prices? If so just how big a financial vested interest are we fighting?
What about the vehicle registrations? Has DVLA already reclaimed them so it can sell them on? Again a big financial vested interest to be fought.
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VIP
South East
Posts: 8,293
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Not one single e-Petition, ever, has resulted in change. That includes those with MILLIONS of signatures.
They simply don't work. The e-Petition website was created BY THE GOVERNMENT as a neat little holding area for the masses to vent their apathetic spleens into where it can be ignored in one simple file on server somewhere on the planet.
No letters through the mail, no phone calls, no people picketing outside Number 10, just millions of encypted bytes that would fit onto a single USB memory stick.
Well done.
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pcj
Part of things
Posts: 203
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I take it you missed parts of this century then? You can't do effective picketing outside no 10 anymore. Indeed you can't even petition parliament directly and protest marches aren't allowed within spitting distance of the place. You certainly won't get them on the phone and you won't get them answering your mail either.
Remember road pricing being floated, if memory serves me correctly there were a million or more signatures agin that one? Nip over and join Change.org. You'll find quite a few of their petitions have resulted in action.
Nobody said the government was going to act directly because of an e-petition: they are however compelled by their own rules to open some form of consideration (yes no guarantee of action, but at least it is on the radar) on it if it passes 100,000. The main purpose of a petition is to give ammunition to those who want to stick pins in the government because those kind of people WILL use the size of a petition in their argument.
As for the "masses and their apathetic spleens" my aren't we a rude person. In terms of spleen it certainly comes over well in your post. When I need a sarcastic "well done" from you sonny it will be a cold day in hell! Nip over and join in the activist defecation you were noting earlier, relief from constipation always eases a bad temper.
At least Mojo made an effort. What are you doing?
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pcj
Part of things
Posts: 203
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BTW nobody is saying Mojo's request to sign the petition is going to do the job. In a way it is nothing more than a skirmish, a holding action which might at least encourage more people to rally to the cause while the heavy duty (and therefore relatively lengthy) approach as listed by HotWire is trying to build momentum.
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VIP
South East
Posts: 8,293
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I take it you missed parts of this century then? You can't do effective picketing outside no 10 anymore. Indeed you can't even petition parliament directly and protest marches aren't allowed within spitting distance of the place. You certainly won't get them on the phone and you won't get them answering your mail either. Remember road pricing being floated, if memory serves me correctly there were a million or more signatures agin that one? Nip over and join Change.org. You'll find quite a few of their petitions have resulted in action. Nobody said the government was going to act directly because of an e-petition: they are however compelled by their own rules to open some form of consideration (yes no guarantee of action, but at least it is on the radar) on it if it passes 100,000. The main purpose of a petition is to give ammunition to those who want to stick pins in the government because those kind of people WILL use the size of a petition in their argument. As for the "masses and their apathetic spleens" my aren't we a rude person. In terms of spleen it certainly comes over well in your post. When I need a sarcastic "well done" from you sonny it will be a cold day in hell! Nip over and join in the activist defecation you were noting earlier, relief from constipation always eases a bad temper. At least Mojo made an effort. What are you doing? I was merely highlighting why the e-Petition website was created and the level of impact over other actions, regardless of how plausible they are in these times. Actually, I've written to my MP on many occasions about various issues and he's replied every time. Mostly I've been displeased with the response but he HAS responded. As to what I am doing? In regards to this particular issue? Nothing, as it has no basis for relevance or success. The idea was for the Government to get as many old polluting cars off the road as possible, why on earth would they go back on that and let a proportion back on the road. It's simply a ludicrous proposition.
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Last Edit: Mar 7, 2015 15:56:06 GMT by VIP
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pcj
Part of things
Posts: 203
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I congratulate you on writing to your MP many times, puts you in a definite minority, but at least it is an action. I was referring to the fact that you couldn't write to Parliament directly, in fact unless your MP (or another MP) raises it, your comment, request etc, has no chance of even being noticed by Parliament.
That is probably the real grace of the e-petition...pass 100.000 and it has to be up for some form of consideration. More importantly the petition's subject's raised visibility gives it a little more chance of someone (MPs included) picking it up and running with it, whereas a phone call or letter to your MP on its own has almost no chance.
If you're doing nothing that's fine, it's your choice to make. Saying I don't agree with you or your course of action is fine too but not when it becomes a decrying of someone else's effort. That isn't doing nothing, instead it amounts to taking an active stand against their action.
This particular issue has every relevance to us as it concerns classic cars and a policy that many now (with hindsight) regard as close to a folly cum fraudulent act (as it used a smokescreen of "green action" to effectively make a subsidy to the car manufacturing/sales industry who lobbied like hell for it).
Whether it has even a remote chance of success, who knows? But if you don't ask you don't get.
As for the possibility of reversing a government action or policy, not often, but just sometimes. Remember tax exemption for classics? Gone in 1997 (with exemption frozen at 1972 and before only, allegedly gone forever as allowing it to continue on a rolling basis wasn't green. Then just a couple of years ago it was back (albeit now a 40 years old exemption) but at least it was back in some form.
As a classic car fan you should be well aware that the "polluting old cars" line is a red-herring. Life-cycle pollution (from build to final disposal) favours keeping most classics going as long as possible rather than investing in the energy/pollution costs of cycling in classics to buy new! To compound the folly of the scrappage scheme many of the cars traded in weren't big polluters, they were perfectly good cars with many years of use left in them. After all if removing big polluters was the intent why not just ban all cars in the high emissions league e.g. those big Chelsea tractors, modern super-BHP 4x4s, exotic supercars etc which remain on the road despite bigger vehicle duty on them because their owners don't even notice the vehicle duty as it doesn't even dent their small change.
Disagree by all means, choose to sit this one out if you wish, but never say die!
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Last Edit: Mar 9, 2015 21:11:38 GMT by pcj: typo
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pcj
Part of things
Posts: 203
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As an aside: this business of "polluting old cars" being replaced by "green cars" that is used so often to beat us with: quite frankly I don't care how green these zealots claim their eco-chariots to be (even if some of the figures are frankly very disputable) because even if the thing is made only from recycled coconut husks purchased only under fairtrade conditions from dewy eyed and innocent daughters of fathers who have held the earth in reverence for generations, and if it is propelled only on the waste products of the brussel sprout industry (and as any sprout hater will tell you you can't get greener than a sprout) the whole shebang has an unmentioned flaw.
Money, filthy lucre in its basest form: unless the funding that paid for the initial purchase of "greeny", and continues to pay for its ongoing running costs, insurance, maintenance etc and the disposal of its by-products (like batteries) and its own final disposal is itself "green" money (i.e. is earned in a truly green, non-polluting industry) then the sum total of that lot puts a bloody great dent in "greeny's" self-proclaimed halo.
Add to that the fact that their total spend on "greeny" (esp if the car is on finance) is probably way more than we spend on our cars so yet again if their money isn't "green" the overall "greenness" of their eco-chariot is dragged down even further.
To add insult to injury to us and our position re keeping classics going the government dishes out bonuses to the better off for things like hybrids up to some £5k depending on the vehicle. As that money comes from tax revenues then most of that isn't green either.
Definitely a funny old world!
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Theres bound to be someone on here that lives near to where these cars are being stored? Why cant someone go and take a photo to show they are still there? Other wise whats the point of threads like this.
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Is there any evidence at all that these cars are still there?
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dw1603
Part of things
Posts: 591
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Mar 10, 2015 20:43:09 GMT
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Apparently if you get enough signatures, they are required to pay attention.
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Hi, the government paid £1000 each for these cars and got the manufacturers to forego £1000 off the price of a new car. Can you imagine the grief from media and manufacturers if they released these car back into the wild? This was all 5 years ago and I would think the cars are long gone now. So why are we still torturing our selves over this? Colin The dealers took £1k off the MRRP which in reality is what they were selling them for pre scrappage plus they got an extra handout from the government (that mean us) so it was a win win for the dealer as the were making at least the same if not more profit per car sold. Before the scrappage scheme you could walk into a dealers and get more than £1k off the book price just by asking nicely, once the scheme started anyone that didn't have a trade in was paying near full retail price That aside that was five years ago and the car are now gone, some were scrapped straight away, some were salvaged and parts sold, some were actually saved and have seen the light of day again, if there are any still about which is unlikely then they can't be reregistered because they have been declared scrapped.
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