Locking wheel nuts

[vitesseefi]

My 1996 Audi A8 came with locking wheel nuts and a key for them. Locking wheel nuts seem to be the Mcgard style with the wavey line "pastry cutter" engagement tab. There is some debate whether they are OE fitment or not. Key is stamped with a Q (I think, not very clear).

I hate locking wheel nuts on old cars (take 'em off and throw 'em far away!) and wanted to take the wheels off to check brakes etc. Key was a bit tired looking but did manage to undo the front two. However, the rears have been done up by a very grumpy gorilla (or a tyre fitter monkey with a big rattler gun) and the key just slips.

I have tried:

Placing the car in the garage doorway and using a scissor jack against the head of the breaker bar to try and hold it in. Fail - even when bracing the other side of the car.

Local tyre fitters (!) had a bash with their big truck rattler gun and although the key held for about 5 seconds the bolt did not undo. They were impressed......

Driving around with the other 4 bolts loosened off (about 5 miles of bumpy lanes). Was not keen on this but needed have worried - no effect! Tightening or loosening the other bolts has no effect and neither does an impact driver and BIG hammer.

Bolt head is very hard. Killed a couple of cobalt drills producing what looks like a centre-pop mark.....

Bolts are deeply recessed in the wheel and the OD of the hole is only about 3mm more than the OD of the bolt head so welding anything on is going to be very tricky if not impossible...... Bolt heads have slip rings on the outside.

Any ideas welcomed. Root of the problem is that the bolts are ridiculously tight (the other 4 needed a 3 foot breaker bar and some serious straining). I'm in the south west just west of Yeovil if anyone knows of any local experts.

Here's a pic of the beast.

It's a bit of a shed but was very cheap and is the full-fat 4.2 Quattro sport version

Thanks

Nick

[93fxdl]

Could you try welding a short length of pipe onto the stuck nut, the heat man help and you can also get plenty of leverage
Ttfn Glenn

[vitesseefi]

Bolt heads are recessed 20 - 25mm into the wheel - think I'd struggle to weld anything on at all, let alone produce a weld strong enough to crack these off - though I agree that the heat would be useful.

Nick

[ChasR]

Where are you in the country? BT Tyres in Rugby have yet to fail with removing them. They dealt with Adam's truly trashed McGuard items without a hitch much to my surprise!

[93fxdl]

For welding, you need the largest pipe that will fit into the wheel, then use a stick plant, so you can reach down the bore to weld.
But if you can find someone to crack them for you and save all the messing about, that would be the best option
Ttfn Glenn

[vitesseefi]

Jul 11, 2015 7:11:15 GMT 93fxdl said:

For welding, you need the largest pipe that will fit into the wheel, then use a stick plant, so you can reach down the bore to weld.
But if you can find someone to crack them for you and save all the messing about, that would be the best option
Ttfn Glenn

Ah ok..... being playing with MIG & TIG too long - didn't think of stick.... I'll put that on the list of possibles.

Chas, near Yeovil in Somerset - bit of a hike to Rugby.

Cheers

Nick

[mat91]

You need this tool, Absolutely brilliant we use it at work and it's only failed once, had to result to the gas axe and destroying the wheel
It is incredible the amount of torque you can apply just make sure the adapter you hammer in is well in and it should be fine

[Ryannn]

Do you want to reuse them? I've always used a left handed socket I got from halfords, it cuts into the nut and then unscrews it!

[bstardchild]

Jul 13, 2015 20:15:22 GMT Ryannn said:

Do you want to reuse them? I've always used a left handed socket I got from halfords, it cuts into the nut and then unscrews it!

That's what I use never been defeated yet - unfortunately I'm not local to you either but they aren't that expensive and I've used my set many times and they've never failed

Handy sometimes on really corroded bolt heads

[vitesseefi]

No, DEFINITELY don't want to re-use them!

Those look alot better than the crappy Laser ones I got from Screwfix........(see plan C)

Meanwhile:
With the pro's defeated...... or threatening large bills without promising success I returned to the attack myself.

Plan B:
I tried driving around (again) with the other 4 bolts loosened (but not removed). I stayed on quiet roads and didn't do anything daft (initially). After about 5 miles of taking it steady I tried braking hard enough to deploy the ABS - several times, then some weaving and the latter eventually provoked some clonking - at which point I tightened the remaining bolts and went straight home to undo it..... or not as it turned out. Still stuck firm. Tried loosening the other bolts off, or doing them up really tight - no joy.

Plan C:
At this point I broke out the dremel and carbide burr to cut the rotating ring off and then attempted to use a proprietary removing tool. That failed as none of the sockets supplied in the set were the right size and even after reducing it a bit with the dremel and putting some notches in it I couldn't get the tool to bite as the bolt head was so hard.

Plan D:
Found a bit of thick wall tube that just fitted over the bolt head. I welded a big nut on one end of it then trimmed it as short as possible. Then managed to weld it to the bolt head by working down the inside of the tube. Not easy as the MIG torch is not much smaller than the pipe ID. Was hoping the considerable heat might help too. Seemed like it might almost work as I could really put some torque into it finally, the 3' breaker bar flexing considerably - before the weld broke

Plan E:
As my tube was now full of weld it wasn't re-usable. I found the biggest nut/socket combination that just fitted into the hole in the wheel and used the socket as a jig to hold the nut while I tacked it through the drive hole. Then retrieved the socket and welded it properly. Access was better this way. Once again I was able to get enough torque into the bolt to flex the breaker bar considerably, but once again, the weld broke. Bolt is just too damn tight or corroded.

Plan F:
Desperate measures. Break out the die grinder and carbide burrs. Slow progress, noisy, lots of sharp swarf, grinder (electric one) kicks like a mule. Took about 45 minutes to chop the head down to the point where I could break the bolt by pulling on the wheel. The stump unscrewed from the hub with a pair of pliers - not corroded, just TIGHT.

So success at last. A few minor marks on the wheel, but mostly in the bolt hole. No damage to the surface where the bolt clamps it. Reassembled with a new bolt and some copper slip after cleaning up the wheel/disc faces.

The wreckage.....





Still got one left....... May go direct to plan F for this one, though the best burr I have is showing signs of attrition.

Nick

[bstardchild]

Jul 21, 2015 21:26:19 GMT vitesseefi said:

Those look alot better than the crappy Laser ones I got from Screwfix........(see plan C)

Plan C:
At this point I broke out the dremel and carbide burr to cut the rotating ring off and then attempted to use a proprietary removing tool. That failed as none of the sockets supplied in the set were the right size and even after reducing it a bit with the dremel and putting some notches in it I couldn't get the tool to bite as the bolt head was so hard.

Hmmm I've never bothered to try and remove the rotating collars - but one helpful hint I can give you is choose an extactor that is a little underside and then using a short extension bar that you don't mind giving a clout - start it of with a few sharp blows to get it to start to bite

I then normally slap a decent sized breaker bar into the extension bar and then use a combination of tapping and turning

It's never failed me yet

[vitesseefi]

The main problem seems to be the extreme tightness of the bolts. I had considerable difficulty undoing even the normal bolts with a big breaker bar.

I think that several of the measures I tried would have worked on less tight bolts. The extractor set I bought turned out to contain exactly the wrong size sockets, which weren't a cleverly shaped as the ones you pictured either - so that method didn't really get a fair test.

Nick

[vitesseefi]

Managed to score a much better key today, Angel Autos at Warden Hill have a HUGE box of them (and I only had to empty about 1/3 of them to find the one I wanted) so will have another crack at doing the remaining one by normal methods.

Nick

[vitesseefi]

"New" key did the trick. Came off with a big breaker bar and considerable effort. Now in the bin!

Nick

[bstardchild]

Jul 23, 2015 21:30:02 GMT vitesseefi said:

"New" key did the trick. Came off with a big breaker bar and considerable effort. Now in the bin!

Nick

Best place for them - good result