|
|
|
May 20, 2016 11:40:21 GMT
|
|
Namely BMW's, Merc's and VAG cars.
Last of the Beemers 39? Last of the Mercs W124?
Looking underneath an E34 5 Series for example - ally parts, well engineered, quality interior..
Looking under a modern one, the build quality doesn't appear the same, saw surface rust in a 14 plate! Interior plastics, trims quality?
What's changed, have the production locations / methods/ parts quality changed? Why have the looks changed so much?
I know my MK2 golf drove nicer than a MK6.. Too me anyway.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
May 20, 2016 11:46:41 GMT
|
|
Things were built to last back then i guess. Ive noticed my mk1 is alot more reliable than most of my old mans audis (2000-2004). Granted i don't drive it much but it seems there more things to go wrong on modern cars
|
| |
|
|
VIP
South East
Posts: 8,293
|
|
May 20, 2016 12:02:34 GMT
|
Namely BMW's, Merc's and VAG cars. Last of the Beemers 39? Last of the Mercs W124? Looking underneath an E34 5 Series for example - ally parts, well engineered, quality interior.. Looking under a modern one, the build quality doesn't appear the same, saw surface rust in a 14 plate! Interior plastics, trims quality? What's changed, have the production locations / methods/ parts quality changed? Why have the looks changed so much? I know my MK2 golf drove nicer than a MK6.. Too me anyway. If you prefer the older cars (and lets face it most of us here do), then why are you even presenting the question on a forum about older cars? Surely the subject matter is redundant. This seems to be a slightly rephrased version of your 'New Beemers are sh*t' thread which got locked yesterday. How about a thread about how great cars used to be, rather than how apparently bad they are now? |
| |
|
|
|
|
|
May 20, 2016 12:15:15 GMT
|
|
To me, older cars make every journey 'An event' rather than just a journey.
|
| |
96 E320 W210 Wafter - on 18" split Mono's - Sold :-(
10 Kia Ceed Sportwagon - Our new daily
03 Import Forester STi - Sold
98 W140 CL500 AMG - Brutal weekend bruiser! Sold :-(
99 E240 S210 Barge - Now sold
02 Accord 2.0SE - wife's old daily - gone in PX
88 P100 2.9efi Custom - Sold
|
|
|
|
|
May 20, 2016 12:17:20 GMT
|
Things were built to last back then i guess. Ive noticed my mk1 is alot more reliable than most of my old mans audis (2000-2004). Granted i don't drive it much but it seems there more things to go wrong on modern cars I know what you're saying. I think going back to the 70's for example, (looking perhaps at VW), you'd get a car that was better engineered than many of its cost equivalent competitors & it took longer to rot / fall to bits. I think the same was largely true of many Mercedes Benz products, (look at how many were used / are still used as Taxis). I won't pretend to know enough about BMW. Now a lot of the cheaper to mid range VW cars, (or badge engineered VW's like Skoda / Seat), are pricier than their counterparts and not so far ahead of them in terms of engineering robustness / build quality and lagging behind the likes of Toyota & Honda. What's changed? Well an awful lot more of them are manufactured outside Germany for starters. |
| |
|
|
|
|
|
May 20, 2016 12:18:40 GMT
|
|
VIP - Because its something that crosses my mind a lot. Mainly when I'm sat behind something more modern, thinking that my 30 year old beater looks more solid underneath.. Like a rear beam on a 5 year old eurobox, peeling and surface rust.. Makes you wonder what will be considered retro in the future and if cars will survive the same..
Saying that, 70's cars made it!
It's not a dig at moderns, its just a question of what and when things changed.
The point of the post is -
''What's changed, have the production locations / methods/ parts quality changed? Why have the looks changed so much?''
When was the last of the good BMW, MERC?
I know, in short, yes they've all likely changed in some way and the quality isn't as good now..
Just wanted some inputs / opinions / knowledge.
OR
Maybe it is just me that thinks this is a suitable post? I was hoping for some decent info on retros, timelines and the like.
|
| |
|
|
VIP
South East
Posts: 8,293
|
|
May 20, 2016 12:22:40 GMT
|
|
Well, if you want a concise answer, it's because modern cars have so much more in them, in regards to safety systems and technology, and still need to be priced at the same relative price point as a 30-year old car would have done at it's time of sale.
You have Legislation and Market Forces to thank for that. More stuff for the same price means you have to lower the overall quality to meet profit margins, and legal requirements for safety are partially responsible for dictating the way a car looks. The other side of the looks coin is that (in the majority) no-one wants to buy a new car that looks like a 30-year old design. Market Demands requires modern, cutting edge looks. Otherwise we'd all still be wearing bell bottoms.
|
| |
Last Edit: May 20, 2016 12:25:58 GMT by VIP
|
|
|
|
|
May 20, 2016 12:25:54 GMT
|
That's more like it VIP!  |
| |
|
|
andyborris
Posted a lot
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose.
Posts: 2,165
|
|
May 20, 2016 13:15:39 GMT
|
Otherwise we'd all still be wearing bell bottoms. Do you mean bell bottoms are out of fashion? When did this happen? Must get out of the garage more! |
| |
|
|
|
|
|
May 20, 2016 13:27:51 GMT
|
|
I think part of it is to do with the way cars are bought now.
In the past a new car was a big investment and the car that lasted better and was better quality would sell.
Now people buy a car on a weekly payment and it only needs to last 2 years when the dealer takes it back. The manufacturer is then happier for it to last not much longer to get more people signing up to the never never scheme.
Every used car sold is one new car left on the forecourt so build in a lower life expectancy and sell more new cars.
Just my 2p.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
May 20, 2016 13:57:16 GMT
|
Well, if you want a concise answer, it's because modern cars have so much more in them, in regards to safety systems and technology, and still need to be priced at the same relative price point as a 30-year old car would have done at it's time of sale. Would be interesting to have a list of the last "well built" Mercs, Beemers etc. Before they started to get built down to a price, or got taken over, or whatever happened to them. Isn't there a point where Mercedes are generally thought of as having moved from being across the range well built cars to being less well engineered. |
| |
|
|
|
|
|
May 20, 2016 14:21:17 GMT
|
|
My friend Dan had an old (well new to us) e39 523i. Even though it had toys, air bags, abs it still seemed like a well sorted car. Had nearly 300k on it before it died. The mechanic left the manual fuel pump switch on!
So i reckon E39 for the Beemers. Still look good even in todays 'standards'.
Not much experience with Mercs.. Definitely 190's for the last nice looking ones.
How about VW's.. MK3's are heading up to classic / retro now surely? Still seem well built aside from the rot.
|
| |
|
|
VIP
South East
Posts: 8,293
|
|
May 20, 2016 14:30:55 GMT
|
Well, if you want a concise answer, it's because modern cars have so much more in them, in regards to safety systems and technology, and still need to be priced at the same relative price point as a 30-year old car would have done at it's time of sale. Would be interesting to have a list of the last "well built" Mercs, Beemers etc. Before they started to get built down to a price, or got taken over, or whatever happened to them. Isn't there a point where Mercedes are generally thought of as having moved from being across the range well built cars to being less well engineered. 'General concensus' is late late-90s to mid 2000 were the 'bad' period for MB. Looks at the amount of tatty C/E/S classes from that era. To be fair I think they are mostly back on their A-game now. Col @ KK has a C63AMG and that thing is sublime. |
| |
|
|
VIP
South East
Posts: 8,293
|
|
May 20, 2016 14:34:18 GMT
|
I think part of it is to do with the way cars are bought now. In the past a new car was a big investment and the car that lasted better and was better quality would sell. Now people buy a car on a weekly payment and it only needs to last 2 years when the dealer takes it back. The manufacturer is then happier for it to last not much longer to get more people signing up to the never never scheme. Every used car sold is one new car left on the forecourt so build in a lower life expectancy and sell more new cars. Just my 2p. I've heard the 'Built-in Obsolecense' theory before, and it doesn't really hold water. Pretty much any 10-year old Volvo, for example, is still generally as good as the day it rolled off the production line. If it were true, then all used cars would be bargain basement cheap, and they're not. |
| |
|
|
|
|
|
May 20, 2016 14:46:31 GMT
|
|
The newest BMW I have owned was a 4 year old E46 Saloon, have also owned a couple of E36's.
When the F30 shape 3 series came out I went to have a look at it with my brother in law & I must say I wasnt impressed with the quality of the interior. There were plastics that would have felt at home on a milk bottle, didnt feel as well put together as my E46 which was rather disappointing as I really like BMW's, but they don't seem any luxurious than a Ford these days (Not a fan of Fords lol)
So I would say, the E39/E46 era was probably the last of the built to last generation.
That said, if someone offered me a 135i/235i/M2 I wouldnt be saying no lol.
|
| |
|
|
Sinky
Posted a lot
Run Baby Run......Please!
Posts: 1,395
|
|
May 20, 2016 14:53:46 GMT
|
I drive as a daily an E46 coupe . Solid and reliable .1.5 year ownership . 2 tyres 1x Oil change,steering pump. Paint laquare a bit poor. I used to have a W124 coupe same solid and reliable. 1year = 2x tyres and a fuel pump. If you keep on top of maintenace no probs and a pleasure to drive .  |
| |
Last Edit: May 20, 2016 14:54:15 GMT by Sinky
2001 Volvo XC70 wagon
2003 Piaggio X9 Evo
|
|
|
|
|
May 20, 2016 14:56:55 GMT
|
|
Are Volvo, Volvo again?
I believe they went Ford in the 90's? Then Geely most recently?
Correct me if I'm wrong.. Cause I might be.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
May 20, 2016 15:05:52 GMT
|
|
Mercedes went down hill post 1991 inc even the w140's & w124s after this time where not the same quality as the earlier models mercedes really got things wrong with the w210 and C208 to the point where even the Amg Cars suffered. the w202 seems to of faired better although they don't feel as quality a product but then in mercedes terms they where the base range like the w201 and w123 before that the mercedes w108's and w116's where very well engineered however they suffered from rust caused by the method mercedes used as rust proofing
ive currently got a w203 i find the interior to be pretty good quality (200k no squeeks or rattles and has worn well) the paintwork just doesnt have the same depth as the older car's as to the mechanicals some of it seems designed and built to a price rather than engineered
i cant say much for bmw or porsche. and I'm certainly not a fan of VW however i did have a polo 1.4 (1996) for a short time that replaced a ford puma (1.7). and the polo was far better built and much better quality it also went better and handled better! based on the experience with the polo i have found myself looking at Mk3 GTI golfs from time to time
ive helped do some work on the later golfs (2000-2002) and they are horrid to work on.
|
| |
|
|
GT4ME
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,729
|
|
May 20, 2016 15:49:57 GMT
|
|
Funny cos I remember my grandad saying something very similar about his brand new Polo breadvan in 1983 when comparing it to his late 60's Beetle.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
May 20, 2016 16:21:41 GMT
|
Well, if you want a concise answer, it's because modern cars have so much more in them, in regards to safety systems and technology, and still need to be priced at the same relative price point as a 30-year old car would have done at it's time of sale. Would be interesting to have a list of the last "well built" Mercs, Beemers etc. Before they started to get built down to a price, or got taken over, or whatever happened to them. Isn't there a point where Mercedes are generally thought of as having moved from being across the range well built cars to being less well engineered. I would say personally around the late 90's.. |
| |
|
|
|
|
