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Apr 13, 2017 13:13:27 GMT
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It's our Spitfire IV resto project. The car has been all the way to bits for a full restoration as is in the final stages of going back together. We are trying to refit the original screen but with a new screen rubber as the original was completely shot. We've now had the screen in the car 3 times using two different rubbers and two different fitting methods. It's a really big struggle to get it in and once it is in, it doesn't sit right. It is as if the screen is too wide for the car and the rubber lip sits up and away from the glass up both sides and especially in the corners. Only in the central 75% of the top and bottom does it sit down against the glass as it should. The screen surround has had work but I'm pretty confident that it remains the correct shape and it matches well with the spare screen surround and also Mk3 GT6 we have to hand. The screen is the original Triplex marked one and seems to be exactly the same size as the two others we have here. Prime suspect is the new seal. I've fitted a few screens over the years, the last to my 2.5 PI about 4 years ago, and I'm pretty sure they usually need a little stretching to get them onto the screen. The first one of these we had was very slack and the second is even longer making it positively baggy, I suspect that this means there is just too much volume of rubber to go in the available space. We've just modified one of the new seals so it's a snug fit (not actually stretched) around the screen. This meant removing 65mm of seal. When the glue is fully cured we'll try it again. However, this cutting has also given the chance to compare the cross sections of old and new seal. While similar, they are not the same. Below pic shows the differences and these could also be significant. Suppliers claims he's had no issues with the (many) seals of this type supplied. Any ideas? Any good supplier experiences? Thanks Nick
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Last Edit: Apr 13, 2017 13:16:08 GMT by vitesseefi
1967 Triumph Vitesse convertible (old friend) 1996 Audi A6 2.5 TDI Avant (still durability testing) 1972 GT6 Mk3 (Restored after loong rest & getting the hang of being a car again)
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Apr 13, 2017 15:48:54 GMT
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had the same problem with the boys classic mini, it went in eventually and fitted better with the chrome trim fitted, sometimes its easier to put the chrome trim in first and then fit the lot with the usual string method, thats the trouble with most of the remanufactured stuff it does the job but its not perfect, just be glad you've not got a Vauxhall most of the bits are right hard work to source now!
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Apr 13, 2017 16:12:33 GMT
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New rubbers are proper tough to get in reason for this is to account for shrinkage once fitted
Do you have the original perished rubber to retry and see if aperture is all good as you said it's had some remedial repairs done ? Get the bath ran v hot and let the new rubber sit in it for a while before fitting they are just a curse word
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Apr 13, 2017 16:13:12 GMT
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The chrome trim might sort most of that out.
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Rob M
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,915
Club RR Member Number: 41
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Apr 13, 2017 17:39:49 GMT
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When I did a Scimitar screen years back it was a massive ball ache. The new seal wasnt identical to the original and I also had to cut the seal down to fit around the windscreen. It ended up with my mate getting onto the car and pushing his knees into the screen while I pulled the rope around. This eventually had the screen in nice a and snug. One lesson I did learn was that the trim I struggled like a b*stard to get in afterwards ( with a special tool designed to do it ) should have been fitted BEFORE the screen went in!
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Apr 13, 2017 19:31:09 GMT
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Hmm, I've done a number of screen seals over the years and never had this much battle. Really think there is a problem. The amount of extra seal seems wrong to me.
Most recently the one on my 2.5PI which has the same seal trim arrangement. I was advised to fit the trim first on that but really didn't want to as they nearly always leak unless you put mastic in the corners and you can't get the mastic in once the trim is fitted. When I came to fit the trim I did have 10 minutes or so when I thought it was going to be impossible but once I'd figured out how to do it, it wasn't too hard. Wish I could remember how I did it now! I did have some problems with the seal pushing the trim out at the corners and that was nowhere near as bad as this Spitfire screen seal is so I don't think the trim will solve the problem.
Thanks for your comments so far
Nick
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1967 Triumph Vitesse convertible (old friend) 1996 Audi A6 2.5 TDI Avant (still durability testing) 1972 GT6 Mk3 (Restored after loong rest & getting the hang of being a car again)
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Rob M
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,915
Club RR Member Number: 41
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Apr 13, 2017 20:18:54 GMT
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Hmm, I've done a number of screen seals over the years and never had this much battle. Really think there is a problem. The amount of extra seal seems wrong to me. Most recently the one on my 2.5PI which has the same seal trim arrangement. I was advised to fit the trim first on that but really didn't want to as they nearly always leak unless you put mastic in the corners and you can't get the mastic in once the trim is fitted. When I came to fit the trim I did have 10 minutes or so when I thought it was going to be impossible but once I'd figured out how to do it, it wasn't too hard. Wish I could remember how I did it now! I did have some problems with the seal pushing the trim out at the corners and that was nowhere near as bad as this Spitfire screen seal is so I don't think the trim will solve the problem. Thanks for your comments so far Nick Stupid questions/observations but I will stick my neck out and ask anyway!! The comparison between the seals. Is it not remotely possible that you are comparing a new tight seal with a massively shagged one? The 2mm difference, for example, isnt impossible if the original seal is old and weather beaten. The basic shape/design while slightly different in look MAY be different because of the sheer age and wear in the original? Second stupid observation. Was the windscreen fitted with the roof on or off? I ask that because, without any doubt, the issues I had getting the screen and new rubber back in to my Scimitar was partly down to some degree of flexing of the aperture. The Windscreen actually appeared to add some rigidity to the cars structure so, I being stupid, am wondering if there has been a bit of flexing on yours? I'm straw clutching and I don't mind being shot down, its how we learn.
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Last Edit: Apr 13, 2017 20:20:23 GMT by Rob M
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bortaf
Posted a lot
Posts: 4,549
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Apr 13, 2017 21:21:57 GMT
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I had the exact same issue with an MGB i resto'd a few years back using an aftermarket rubber, in the end i fitted the chrome trim first the stringed it in, the rubber was a good inch and a half longer than the origional one and it still looked a bit "off" after fitting but 2 years later (when i next saw the car) it was fine? we had to warm the rubber in hot water before it would string into place and kept it supple with a hair dryer as we fitted it, was a right royal P I T A
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R.I.P photobucket
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Darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,700
Club RR Member Number: 39
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Windscreen fitting nightmaresDarkspeed
@darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member 39
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Apr 13, 2017 21:25:37 GMT
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Have a look in the COH Bains Catalogue at the avaiable profiles
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Apr 13, 2017 21:41:16 GMT
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Hmm, I've done a number of screen seals over the years and never had this much battle. Really think there is a problem. The amount of extra seal seems wrong to me. Most recently the one on my 2.5PI which has the same seal trim arrangement. I was advised to fit the trim first on that but really didn't want to as they nearly always leak unless you put mastic in the corners and you can't get the mastic in once the trim is fitted. When I came to fit the trim I did have 10 minutes or so when I thought it was going to be impossible but once I'd figured out how to do it, it wasn't too hard. Wish I could remember how I did it now! I did have some problems with the seal pushing the trim out at the corners and that was nowhere near as bad as this Spitfire screen seal is so I don't think the trim will solve the problem. Thanks for your comments so far Nick Stupid questions/observations but I will stick my neck out and ask anyway!! The comparison between the seals. Is it not remotely possible that you are comparing a new tight seal with a massively shagged one? The 2mm difference, for example, isnt impossible if the original seal is old and weather beaten. The basic shape/design while slightly different in look MAY be different because of the sheer age and wear in the original? Second stupid observation. Was the windscreen fitted with the roof on or off? I ask that because, without any doubt, the issues I had getting the screen and new rubber back in to my Scimitar was partly down to some degree of flexing of the aperture. The Windscreen actually appeared to add some rigidity to the cars structure so, I being stupid, am wondering if there has been a bit of flexing on yours? I'm straw clutching and I don't mind being shot down, its how we learn. Yep, entirely possible that the old screen rubber has taken a set from it's time installed, though it's been out a year and that section was taken from the near the centre of the top so it's not been under major stress there. There are other differences though probably not ones that matter. It also appears softer but that might well be age. Your are correct about the floppyness of the frame. Our second attempt was with the hardtop bolted on. Made no difference except stopping me from bending the frame again...... We'll have a crack at fitting the shortened one tomorrow. If that hasn't helped I'm going to be quite grumpy......... Nick
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1967 Triumph Vitesse convertible (old friend) 1996 Audi A6 2.5 TDI Avant (still durability testing) 1972 GT6 Mk3 (Restored after loong rest & getting the hang of being a car again)
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Apr 13, 2017 21:45:09 GMT
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Have a look in the COH Bains Catalogue at the avaiable profiles Thanks, I'll do that. I see they list a screen seal for the Spit but I can't quickly see what the profile is. A contact in the trade (Triumph specialist) also mentioned a company called P Gough who he reckoned were excellent but I can't find hide nor hair of them..... Nick
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1967 Triumph Vitesse convertible (old friend) 1996 Audi A6 2.5 TDI Avant (still durability testing) 1972 GT6 Mk3 (Restored after loong rest & getting the hang of being a car again)
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,194
Club RR Member Number: 170
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Windscreen fitting nightmaresChasR
@chasr
Club Retro Rides Member 170
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Apr 13, 2017 21:54:46 GMT
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I'd contact Mick Ward. He gets half decent rubbers. I know the ones he got for the Stag were spot on and surprisingly they were reasonably priced. A local classic car windscreen guy swears by their rubbers for Stags. I think that may have been a P Gough rubber but Mick can be helpful in assisting in sourcing it. I take it one of the rubbers was from James Paddock or was it one of the other big boys? Like yourself I normally get a bit of string and simply pull the rubber in .
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Apr 14, 2017 11:47:21 GMT
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Have you got another screen to compare the width ? Measure from corner to corner and use the smaller screen, Remanufactured rubbers are often a bad fit in my experience, Co Baines are a good company and make good fitting rubbers,
Reference fitting screen on a stag, Fit chromed beforehand and you seal the rubber before you fit it,
Reference fitting the spit screen,
Make sure that you fit the side's first using the string loop system if at all possible,
Good luck
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MK2 Cortina Estate
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Apr 14, 2017 13:52:22 GMT
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Yes, two other screens, both original Triplex marked, which seem to be exactly the same size.
We've just fitted the screen again with the shortened seal (using the string method). It went in a lot easier this time, but still isn't sitting quite right. One side is now ok (the side we got in first having already done the bottom), the other side is much as before.
While I can see the benefits of getting the sides in first (gives more scope for the rubber to distribute itself according to the pressures on it) I can't think how to actually achieve this..... multiple stings?
My limited experience with the Stag/2000/2500 screens and trims suggests that if you fit the trim first you can't back fill with mastic after fitting, and if you don't back fill with mastic - they leak, which is presumably why the vast majority of them leak at least a little bit and some leak lots.
Nick
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1967 Triumph Vitesse convertible (old friend) 1996 Audi A6 2.5 TDI Avant (still durability testing) 1972 GT6 Mk3 (Restored after loong rest & getting the hang of being a car again)
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Apr 17, 2017 20:15:17 GMT
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You don't need multiple strings just one, Assuming that the string is long enough that is, Most of the rubber screens I fit I use a string starting at the top in the middle and then run it round to the side/middle of the rubber and make a loop, then round to the bottom/middle and loop and the same on the side again and the back to the top of the screen meeting the other end of the string, You should now have three loops and the ends, This method means that you have more control of the screen when fitting, If you start at the side's and pull the strings both sides around six inches it will centralize the screen, Then the top and bottom, Continue to pull the strings a little at a time while you have an assistant pushing GENTLY on the outside but only where the rubber has gone over the lip/aperture, You should be able to work the rest out as you have some experience of fitting screens , On the inside of the screen the rubber may need to be pulled in further to correctly seat the screen, Sometimes you can use your finger tips or you may need to use a hook tool, I've always used a Snap On hose pipe releasing hook tool as for me it has the right end/angle for the job and doesn't bend like cheap tools do, I hope I haven't confused you more, In my 30 years of experience of fitting glass to vehicles the rubber needs to be spot on and many rubbers are often a bad profile leading to problems with the fit and finish, Good luck and hopefully you will get it fitting better.
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MK2 Cortina Estate
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Apr 17, 2017 22:14:34 GMT
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Thanks for taking the time to write that explanation. I now see how it works! I'll try it like that next time and I reckon there will be a next time quite soon as it's still not sitting right. It's now gone through a couple of heat/cool cycles having been sat in the sun for a couple of days and actually seems to have gone some way to centralising itself as the side that was sitting right has lifted a bit and the bad side has settled a bit. Going to leave it be and see what happens, but will also be looking at sourcing a rubber from a different supplier as I don't think this one is quite right.
Thanks
Nick
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1967 Triumph Vitesse convertible (old friend) 1996 Audi A6 2.5 TDI Avant (still durability testing) 1972 GT6 Mk3 (Restored after loong rest & getting the hang of being a car again)
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I had trouble with a Bedford screen in the end the supplier has sent me the wrong rubber seal!
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It will come in handy even if you never use it
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Apr 30, 2017 13:45:34 GMT
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Answer to the screen problem..... Buy a proper screen rubber from a proper windscreen rubber supplier! COH Baines Ltd www.coh-baines.co.uk/p.....screen-surround.htmlThe others will be returned for credit with the suggestion that they stock Baines products that are fit for purpose in the future Thanks to all who suggested COH Baines! The seal they sent was the correct length (the same as the one we modified as it turns out), has a subtly different profile and slightly softer compound. Nick
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1967 Triumph Vitesse convertible (old friend) 1996 Audi A6 2.5 TDI Avant (still durability testing) 1972 GT6 Mk3 (Restored after loong rest & getting the hang of being a car again)
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Apr 30, 2017 14:06:39 GMT
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I do a lot of rubbers, on trains wat we do is before trying to wrestle with the rubber we let it soak for an hour in very hot water, this makes the rubber more willingly to work on.
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Apr 30, 2017 15:10:11 GMT
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Answer to the screen problem..... Buy a proper screen rubber from a proper windscreen rubber supplier! COH Baines Ltd www.coh-baines.co.uk/p.....screen-surround.htmlThe others will be returned for credit with the suggestion that they stock Baines products that are fit for purpose in the future Thanks to all who suggested COH Baines! The seal they sent was the correct length (the same as the one we modified as it turns out), has a subtly different profile and slightly softer compound. Nick Dolomite folk have had many, many issues with Baines seals leaking for years, due to a change in screen thickness and the seals only working properly on one size. I'm unsure if this is also the case on spits, but just be aware. They also tend to crack and perish after 3 years too.
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