Darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,696
Club RR Member Number: 39
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Yep, thats the long term plan. Do you have a link to an official document that states the long term plan? Probably the best place to start. www.gov.uk/government/policies/transport-emissionsAnd specifically from the Office for Low Emmission Vehicles www.gov.uk/government/organisations/office-for-low-emission-vehiclesAnd take the time to read this www.gov.uk/government/speeches/getting-ready-for-the-automated-car-revolution"But despite this progress, we’ve seen nothing in our lifetimes that can compare with the motoring revolution that’s just around the corner. A revolution that will transform the way we travel. The way we buy, run and power our cars. And the way we insure them. The autonomous, ultra-low emission vehicles that are in development now will be as different to today’s family saloons as those early vehicles which participated in the first London to Brighton run. They represent an unprecedented leap forward in the history of the automobile. So much so that future generations will see 20th century motoring with a driver at the wheel controlling a vehicle powered by an internal combustion engine as merely a quaint stepping stone on the journey to cleaner, fully autonomous and more efficient road transport." www.morgan-motor.co.uk/ev3/www.morgan-motor.co.uk/mmc/researchanddev/pluse.htmlIt will be interesting to get the stats in 20 years on the number of electrocuted home mechanics!
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Last Edit: Nov 12, 2017 6:53:49 GMT by Darkspeed
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steveg
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,565
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Nov 12, 2017 11:18:31 GMT
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I wonder if those who had a stable of good horses and a nice carriage felt the same about motor cars then as a lot of us probably do now about this 'leap forward' ?
I just hope these autonomous vehicles are good at towing car trailers so we can take our cars to tracks to drive.
I think it's time to buy something with a big V8 with no exhaust before it's too late.
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Nov 12, 2017 12:31:12 GMT
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I think the difference for the majority horse and cart owners of the day was that it was a highly aspirational choice based on a true technological revolution. Cars offered faster, more comfortable, world expanding and highly futuristic excitement. They didn't directly and immediately threaten horse and carts, they merely made them seem increasingly labour intensive, slow and short range and the transition therefore took decades as people made a personal choice to invest in an automobile and then eventually get rid of all the horse paraphenalia. There was no gov't mission to get people off horses for any reason.
This is not really a revolution at all in terms of the technology, its merely, on paper, an improvement. But the improvement is based entirely on spurious environmental benefits firstly, and more insidiously its about a social revolution of disempowerment... Staged as being for the greater good of us all.
We will eventually find the idea of ordinary people steering heavy metal machines freely down roads as remarkable and chaotic as we feel when we watch ancient film footage of plucky chaps with pipes haring around the utterly imperfect Brooklands circuit with no fireproofs, no helmet, no brakes, no safety harnesses or cages, or a roof, or airbags... Just a pipe and some Brycream and five tonnes of 130mph rattling over the wobbly slabs on glorified cart wheels.
This EV & driverless future is being subjected to all the usual propaganda tricks to make it seem like a boldly beneficial step into the future, but environmentally it simply cannot be the case that everyone charging their EVs will be any better for the environment than owning ice cars.
It's really about shifting perceptions about developments that disempower and, like the vast majority of modern technological inventions, its actually about disabling us... We happily delegate all function to apps and mobile services and in doing so we forget how we ever managed to do it ourselves. So it is with driverless cars. Some benefits, but also some disabilities.
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Nov 12, 2017 12:43:54 GMT
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(interestingly though there are some cultural and economic theorists that have written really interesting papers and articles about the humble horse being the first victim of redundancy caused by the technology of the industrial revolution. They use the decline of the working horse as a best guess model for the impending decline of the working human, and it doesn't look good!)
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Nov 12, 2017 12:51:10 GMT
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One day, high worth automatons in fine attire will pay a high admission price in order to recharge in sumptuous surroundings, sipping on cocktails of wd40 and coolant, and laughing cruelly at the absurd spectacle of primitive humans running slowly and imperfectly round a cartoonified Olympic race track for a paltry bitcoin prize.
There will be some excellent runners, and they will be owned by hedge fund cyborgs. They will get the very best steroids and have their habitat boxes cleaned out regularly while they are being exercised to physical perfection in a climate controlled biodynamic pod.
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Last Edit: Nov 13, 2017 14:54:51 GMT by Deleted
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Nov 12, 2017 13:02:08 GMT
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For me, one of the nastiest pieces of propaganda is the "Lunatic" button on Tesla cars. The adoption of EVs is entirely dependent on the affluent and aspirational new muddle classes. They have to feel two things...
1. That they are being good and responsible middle class citizens who are actually making a difference and are this able to take a moral high ground and a preachy evangelical stance that makes them feel very virtuous. This is where it's necessary to turn a blind eye to the ecological realities of what they're buying into.
2. They can't feel compromised in any way by their decision, so all disadvantages need to be repackaged as positives or distracted from. There's a lot of talk amongst EVrs about the wonderful new way of travelling, about the opportunities for families to spend more time together and to appreciate a different pace of life (ie while they wait for the car to recharge). It's framed as a new cultural paradigm for travel.
The reality is that living with an EV demands mire planning and much slower journey times over any decent distance. So to distract from that, and to give the buyer something to be proud if, they give them a button of superiority. A button that says they can go faster than anyone else. They're the best.
Well, really? Where will that lunatic button get you really... It depletes your range horifically. It's a button that permits you to behave irresponsibly if you feel like exerting your superiority, but it's a button that is almost entirely useless, and will compromise your vehicle hugely. Tesla themselves advise against it because it can cause component failure I believe. So why is the lunatic button there? What's its true purpose? Social Propaganda.
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Nov 12, 2017 14:46:00 GMT
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You sir , are a danger and must be eliminated . 'Thinking' is not allowed you must simply comply and believe what you are told to believe . EVs do indeed have huge political implications that will be accepted because it is 'good for all'. Restriction on (free) movement of the masses has always been the first aim of total control . All was going well until someone got greedy and decided , that to make more money, they needed to open the car market up to the populus . I'm old enough to have lived and seen vast changes in the availability , acceptance and then attitudes towards private motoring. As it stands we have had the good times and the future looks bleak . The ICE has brought about huge political and it's future will do the same. However all the time you struggle to get people to see what is happening NOW and they'll " worry about it when it happens" we are controlable .
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bortaf
Posted a lot
Posts: 4,549
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Nov 12, 2017 16:24:35 GMT
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For me, one of the nastiest pieces of propaganda is the "Lunatic" button on Tesla cars. The adoption of EVs is entirely dependent on the affluent and aspirational new muddle classes. They have to feel two things... 1. That they are being good and responsible middle class citizens who are actually making a difference and are this able to take a moral high ground and a preachy evangelical stance that makes them feel very virtuous. This is where it's necessary to turn a blind eye to the ecological realities of what they're buying into. 2. They can't feel compromised in any way by their decision, so all disadvantages need to be repackaged as positives or distracted from. There's a lot of talk amongst EVrs about the wonderful new way of travelling, about the opportunities for families to spend more time together and to appreciate a different pace of life (ie while they wait for the car to recharge). It's framed as a new cultural paradigm for travel. The reality is that living with an EV demands mire planning and much slower journey times over any decent distance. So to distract from that, and to give the buyer something to be proud if, they give them a button of superiority. A button that says they can go faster than anyone else. They're the best. Well, really? Where will that lunatic button get you really... It depletes your range horifically. It's a button that permits you to behave irresponsibly if you feel like exerting your superiority, but it's a button that is almost entirely useless, and will compromise your vehicle hugely. Tesla themselves advise against it because it can cause component failure I believe. So why is the lunatic button there? What's its true purpose? Social Propaganda. what the hell is a lunatic button ?
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R.I.P photobucket
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Nov 12, 2017 16:54:22 GMT
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Sorry, I meant "Ludicrous" button, not lunatic button.
It's a button with "Ludicrous" written on it and when you press it the car accelerates faster than almost anything else available.
But you'll only go about three miles, and Tesla accept no responsibility for any detrimental effect on the vehicle, or anyone unfortunate enough to get in the way of an almost silent hypercar in the hands of a completely inexperienced eco-consciousness superhero.
But, you know... We're the irresponsible idiots driving dangerous old cars and putting silly exhausts on them.
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Last Edit: Nov 12, 2017 17:01:06 GMT by Deleted
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bortaf
Posted a lot
Posts: 4,549
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Nov 12, 2017 17:12:58 GMT
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So it's a renamed sports button then? cars have had them for decades, even some very unsporting vehicals like the toyota lucida Look at it another way, Tesla put the full power option in a locked away menu, unlike most other vehicals on the road where full power is available to anyone at anytime Are you saying that people with a loud exhaust are safer on the road as pedestrians can hear them coming ? sorry but i was taught, STOP, LOOK and then LISTEN so unless this insane button also includes a cloaking device i fail to see how it makes it more dangerous for idiots walking into the road, sorry but i was obv brought up in a much simpler age when roads were for vehicals and pavements for people, maybe we need to re-educate this generation to the dangers of roads ? and lets be really real here, most idiots who walk out into the road without checking are 99% deaf due to the earphones they wear whilst watching a video on a smart phone, IME and IMHO smart phones cause more pedestrian/vehical interfaces than a quiet car will ever do, cars fooking hurt! don't walk in front of them, sorry but to blame a silent car over an idiot not looking before walking out into the road is stretching it a bit IMHO.
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Last Edit: Nov 12, 2017 17:16:04 GMT by bortaf
R.I.P photobucket
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Nov 12, 2017 17:22:56 GMT
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Fortunately for both of us, I wasn't. I merely over-ran into a hypotehtical anecdote after making the point about the ludicrous mode. I should have stopped myself because I was already wildly off-topic before I veered wildly again into the relationship between pedestrians and cars and exhaust pipes. It's not a sport mode by the way. Tesla has a sport mode. They also have an insane mode and a cost option of a Ludicrous mode... And now a Ludicrous Plus mode too. The reason I found myself waffling about them though is that it was necessary for Tesla to offer it because the illusion of being virtuous was not quite enough to ensure the projected levels of uptake Tesla needed. It needed superiority as well as virtue, hence insane mode, ludicrous mode and ludicrous plus mode... Because as you said yourself... Every dreary pleb has a sport mode. There's nothing to feel smug about. The viral marketing potential of putting a "Ludicrous" mode on a car is immense. Any traditional manufacturer would have been headed off with legislation and ethical objections to a Ludicrous mode, but not Telsa because they're saving the planet. Mainstream manufacturers are hog-tied with regards to what they claim in terms of performance in their marketing. There was a time when hot hatches were advertised with claimed 0-60 times and grand tourers with top speeds. You won't find ads like that anymore. Audi has tried to allude to macho power and speed by advertising its performance cars amongst drag racers, hot rods and gassers, but by having them drive sedately by as though to say "we don't even need to try", but they are still piggy-backing on that world of raw power to quietly suggest something they are absolutely not allowed to say explicitly. Tesla's Ludicrous button is a marketing master-stroke. It is not an artful evocation of the grand tradition of sporting power, it's a brash hedge fund manager's uncouth brag. Crude and boastful and steeped in "f*ck you, I don't care" attitude . It does not appear in any official advertising as far as I know. It relies only on people writing about it on blogs and making Youtube vids of it in action... all safely beyond Tesla's ethical obligations to responsible marketing. The Tesla marketing gimmick actually sanctions, on a semiotic level, an entitlement to be insane, or ludicrous. There is a tangible and loosely justifiable link between "sport mode" and driving...ie Sport driving. Sporty driving is at the heart of the relationship between aspiring drivers and fast cars. Sport driving implies skill, mastery, and control, and finding the edge. There is no comparable quality link to be deduced between driving and being insane or ludicrous. Those words connote the very opposite to skill, mastery and control. They connote abandonment of those things and a delegation of responsibility to the vehicle in pursuit of something beyond the edge for the sake of being beyond the edge. You just press a button, and everything becomes ludicrous. More ludicrous than your curse word BMW M3 sport mode. This is a "mutually assured destruction bat-shyt crazy better than all of you at any cost" mode. Because "I'm entitled" because "I'm saving the planet" and "I can afford it". But I apologise for going off topic and we should maybe consider discussing the world of Tesla in another thread and letting this get back to the MOT consultation!
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Last Edit: Nov 12, 2017 19:08:23 GMT by Deleted
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Nov 12, 2017 20:14:44 GMT
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I couldn't see anything in those links to say the longterm plan is to ban or restrict the usage of historic car by way of exempting them from having an MOT (which as it stand they haven't said you can't get an MOT ) which is what a lot of people is implying will happen.
Maybe we will go the way of some US states where if you have an historic car you are restricted to when/ where you can use it but register it as a daily car (paying the lower rate RFL and having an MOT) then use it as you wish which I don't see any issue with.
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Nov 12, 2017 20:18:29 GMT
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Are you saying that people with a loud exhaust are safer on the road as pedestrians can hear them coming ? sorry but i was taught, STOP, LOOK and then LISTEN sadly that isn't taught now as updating FB whilst walking is far more important than getting ran over and anyhow if you as a driver hit a pedestrian that has walked out in front of you without looking the blame lies entirely with you for not paying attention to where you are driving your killing machine
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Nov 12, 2017 20:28:13 GMT
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There isn't anything about it in the MOT consultation literature 1300Dolly. It is an intention that has been declared in government planning papers around the future of UK roads though. I read something myself just last week, and I'm cursing myself for not saving the link. Been through my browser histories on three different devices and haven't yet found it, but I will.
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Nov 13, 2017 11:02:12 GMT
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Crikey, we've gone from some old cars being MOT exempt to a dystopian nightmare where the technocracy enslaves humanity.
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bortaf
Posted a lot
Posts: 4,549
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Nov 13, 2017 15:11:53 GMT
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Last off topic waffle from me, Some would say cars like the charger hellcat are the exact ICE powerd cars you claim would have been headed off with legislation, i meen 707 horsepower and 650 pound-feet of torque, being able to hit 204 mph and accelerate to 60 in 3.4 seconds is as ludicrous as any tesla and you still get to feel smug and kill the planet as you do it, lets face it you have to blame Mell Brooks for the ludicrous speed idea not Tesla, you make links that are just not there, the ludicrous button was a jokey nod towards space balls (the movie) and not a "kill a few pedestrians" button you try to suggest it is, using your rational the hellcat being named after the Grumman F6F Hellcat is a lable allowing the owner to mercilessly gun/run down anything with a ZERO on it and all you have to do to unleash this killer on the streets is use the red key, much easyer to do by accident, picking up the wrong key is way easyer than navigating a series of menus and then answering the big question, do i want my mummy or do i want the car "to bring it on" , at least the tesla warns you specifictly of the extra wear, the red key of the hellcat carrys no such warning although the mirrors do state "objects in the rear view mirror may appear closer than they are", or was that meatloaf ?
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R.I.P photobucket
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Nov 13, 2017 17:22:42 GMT
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Ah yes, Hellcat is a good reference point. My theory is duly corrected.
= )
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Nov 13, 2017 18:05:51 GMT
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This isn't true, not ALL 40 year old vehicles will be RFL and MOT exempt (Q plates being one example). The FHBVC have no interest in the modified or radically altered cars and their members do not represent those classes of owners and therefore they only speak on behalf of what they believe to be 'historic' vehicles.
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The FHBVC have no interest in the modified or radically altered cars Which is ironic as the new 15% power increase rule probably puts a whole load of their members in the modified category.
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