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Sept 25, 2017 10:23:47 GMT
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there is no link between tax and MOT, other than they are numerically the same (40 years) the only link is that one proposals for declaring substantially altered for MOT exemption, is on your application for free tax @40 Gotcha, I was getting confused by the 40 year thing on both.
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,715
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Sept 25, 2017 10:36:10 GMT
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The FBHVC have really been left with egg on their face over this, and have been taking quite a battering on social media about failing to protect the interests of their members. The ones who are angriest are the ones with only lightly modified cars who will fall foul of the 15% figure (which appeared to come out of nowhere, it wasn't mentioned in the consultation last year) and will now have to start MOTing their vehicles again.
To be honest though, I think they're entirely right. The FBHVC had been making a big thing of how important they are and how much the government listens to them, and then the government has just gone 'well actually no, we'll just do what we want anyway', making them look like right idiots. Unless they mount a proper legal challenge to this using their legislation fund, they're going to alienate a large proportion of their membership who they failed to represent.
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Sept 25, 2017 20:09:01 GMT
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I'm keen to have my Historic vehicles MOT'd, stock or not, and I'm more than happy that the tax exemption age has reverted to a rolling 40 year cutoff. Radically Altered and BIVA is an argument for another day. My issue with the 15% proposal is that it came from nowhere. There was nothing in the original consultation that even hinted at it (yes, I was one of the 2500 who responded). At the moment it looks like tax exemption and MOT exemption are only tied by year of manufacture but who's to say that the long term plan is to keep it that way? Easy enough to create a new taxation class for "Vehicles NOT of Historical Interest" and start ramping up the costs. Want to put cams in your Vauxhall red top? £500 a year squire. Bike throttle bodies on your 106? That'll be £700 a year. V8 Pop? How about £2500?
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1968 Cal Look Beetle - 2007cc motor - 14.45@93mph in full street trim 1970-ish Karmann Beetle cabriolet - project soon to be re-started. 1986 Scirocco - big plans, one day!
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Sept 25, 2017 21:16:48 GMT
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I'm keen to have my Historic vehicles MOT'd, stock or not, and I'm more than happy that the tax exemption age has reverted to a rolling 40 year cutoff. Radically Altered and BIVA is an argument for another day. My issue with the 15% proposal is that it came from nowhere. There was nothing in the original consultation that even hinted at it (yes, I was one of the 2500 who responded). At the moment it looks like tax exemption and MOT exemption are only tied by year of manufacture but who's to say that the long term plan is to keep it that way? Easy enough to create a new taxation class for "Vehicles NOT of Historical Interest" and start ramping up the costs. Want to put cams in your Vauxhall red top? £500 a year squire. Bike throttle bodies on your 106? That'll be £700 a year. V8 Pop? How about £2500? I too am more than prepared to have my 40+ year old cars MOT'd, they are more or less daily drivers anyway so do considerable mileages. I'm in the trade, have a ramp etc but I still would like a second opinion from time to time! I also was one of the 2500 and you're quite correct, the 15% thing came completely out of the blue. TBH I think it is unworkable anyway and if there is a cutoff, it will devolve to the 8 point rule which will simplify things and bring it in line with existing DVLA policy. Though the scenario you suggest of blatant profiteering by DVLA by creating VNHI could exist, I consider it unlikely on purely numerical grounds. Of the tiny pecentage of VHIs on our roads compared to "normal" vehicles, only a tiny fraction of that already small number are modifieds. Even charging thousands a year to those few would not recover the admin costs. Not to mention the fact that owners would lie their heads off to avoid it! It's not as if DVLA is likely to put every classic on a rolling road to make sure it qualifies, is it? Primarily, DVLA (or any of the other related departments like VOSA) is about costs versus income, they will not do anything that doesn't show them a higher profit margin. Whoever it is that administers MOTs is in a worse state than DVLA as the service is effectively free. The price you pay for an MOT goes to the testing station not the government. So exempting some 25000 (?) cars from MOT is saving THEM money, don't think for a moment that they are trying to do US a favour! Steve
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Sept 26, 2017 7:51:11 GMT
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I sincerely wish the powers that be would stop f-ing with stuff that they don't need to!
I still don't agree with the pre-1960 ruling and have given up looking at vehicles that look dangerous "because I don't have to get an MOT".
Leave things as they are - remove the tax if you wish but seriously, if it's that much of a problem for someone scraping up a few hundred quid a year for tax then, well......
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Sept 26, 2017 8:19:29 GMT
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Leave things as they are - remove the tax if you wish but seriously, if it's that much of a problem for someone scraping up a few hundred quid a year for tax then, well...... A few hundred quid for one car is fine, even better if you get value by doing a lot of miles. I currently have 4 cars on the road with a 5th in build. VED on that lot would be over £1200 pa if 2 of them weren't exempt. Most of them do less than 2000 miles a year. Suddenly it's not just a few quid anymore! Steve
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Sept 26, 2017 8:31:44 GMT
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I've been thinking about this as I have a car that's been SORN since 2007, I'm keeping it because it has a cherished plate and I can't get the pate transferred off without it being taxed, I can't tax it without an MOT. And as it stands it needs a lot of welding, which one day I hope I'll get round to doing.
So does this change things, once the car no longer requires an MOT or Tax then potentially -
1. in theory if I got it running and stopping I could just drive it... which I won't as it's unsafe. I know it says the vehicle needs to be roadworthy, but what's to stop people recommissioning vehicles that have been off the road for a long time. Obviously they can still be stopped and checked and get done if found to not be roadworthy, and in the event of an accident could be in big trouble. But many people would try I'm sure, and will no doubt get away with it for a while.
How will they know the difference between a car that reappears on the roads that's had 10 year nut and bolt rebuild and one that's been dragged out of a garage, had a battery charge, air in the tyres and fresh fuel and away you go???
2. without recommissioning the car, then surely I should be able to transfer the number plate off.
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Sept 26, 2017 9:31:33 GMT
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Leave things as they are - remove the tax if you wish but seriously, if it's that much of a problem for someone scraping up a few hundred quid a year for tax then, well...... A few hundred quid for one car is fine, even better if you get value by doing a lot of miles. I currently have 4 cars on the road with a 5th in build. VED on that lot would be over £1200 pa if 2 of them weren't exempt. Most of them do less than 2000 miles a year. Suddenly it's not just a few quid anymore! Steve So don't have all those cars then? No-one's forcing you to after all. I've got several cars and I either have to SORN them or pay for them, and I choose the latter.
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Sept 26, 2017 10:46:25 GMT
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i think people are getting a little too stirred up.
fitting a 300tdi engine to a series 3 land rover is NOT historically preserving it. neither is putting high lift cams, forged pistons, steel crank, throttle bodies and DTA pro ecu on a mk2 escort.
they are not threatening the identity of your car, or whether its a classic car or not. you just fail to qualify for mot exemption and you have to go and have your car scrutinised to MINIMUM road safety standards. the end.
i would prefer it if the government got it out of their heads that anyone who owns and old car is also a competent home mechanic. he's got an austin healey sprite so by default can test the condition and application of all the safety critical parts of his car. there are thousands of classic car owners who couldn't tell a triple lay overhead manifold sprocket if it hit them in the balls.
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rollingcoal
Part of things
we can engineer a way around that, maybe
Posts: 193
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Sept 26, 2017 11:25:41 GMT
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i think people are getting a little too stirred up. fitting a 300tdi engine to a series 3 land rover is NOT historically preserving it. neither is putting high lift cams, forged pistons, steel crank, throttle bodies and DTA pro ecu on a mk2 escort. they are not threatening the identity of your car, or whether its a classic car or not. you just fail to qualify for mot exemption and you have to go and have your car scrutinised to MINIMUM road safety standards. the end. i would prefer it if the government got it out of their heads that anyone who owns an old car is also a competent home mechanic. he's got an austin healey sprite so by default can test the condition and application of all the safety critical parts of his car. there are thousands of classic car owners who couldn't tell a triple lay overhead manifold sprocket if it hit them in the balls. at long last someone talking some sense no matter what, mine will always go for an MOT, so makes no difference to me whatsoever just don't take away the free road tax
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A55 Austin Cambridge 1961 Triumph Spartan 1965 mk1 Ford Escort 2 door 1968 Peugeot 406 diesel estate 1998 Citroen Xsara hatchback diesel 1999
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mk2cossie
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,976
Club RR Member Number: 77
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Sept 26, 2017 12:59:06 GMT
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i think people are getting a little too stirred up. fitting a 300tdi engine to a series 3 land rover is NOT historically preserving it. neither is putting high lift cams, forged pistons, steel crank, throttle bodies and DTA pro ecu on a mk2 escort. they are not threatening the identity of your car, or whether its a classic car or not. you just fail to qualify for mot exemption and you have to go and have your car scrutinised to MINIMUM road safety standards. the end. i would prefer it if the government got it out of their heads that anyone who owns an old car is also a competent home mechanic. he's got an austin healey sprite so by default can test the condition and application of all the safety critical parts of his car. there are thousands of classic car owners who couldn't tell a triple lay overhead manifold sprocket if it hit them in the balls. Pretty much nail on the head there. In the grand scheme of things why do the government have this thing for saving motorists money? Its a max of £54 for a test per year. If the car owners think that's too much money, they should look at other forms of transport surely? As for the people that have more than one car at their disposal, well done to them! But remember that owning and driving a car has always been and always will be a privilege and not a human right
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hotrat
Part of things
Posts: 14
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Sept 27, 2017 20:13:02 GMT
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The bit where you take the car for its MOT and the tester guy says, sorry but I need to tick this box that says your car has been majorly fucmkessed about with. When does that Part start? Do we know.
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Last Edit: Sept 27, 2017 20:15:54 GMT by hotrat
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,715
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Sept 27, 2017 20:54:39 GMT
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The bit where you take the car for its MOT and the tester guy says, sorry but I need to tick this box that says your car has been majorly fucmkessed about with. When does that Part start? Do we know. Providing it all goes through unchanged, 20th may 2018.
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hotrat
Part of things
Posts: 14
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Sept 27, 2017 22:04:32 GMT
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So after the MOT guy turns down all my bribes not to tick that box, that's it, I'm flagged up. Waiting for a letter from DVLA telling me I need to bring the car in for a BIVA or they will withhold my number plate.
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,715
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Sept 27, 2017 22:13:20 GMT
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It's not yet clear if they will ask the tester to flag cars up, it's down to you personally to declare if it's modified or not. No one actually knows what will happen then, but the best guess is you will be sent a v627 form to declare what parts of your vehicle are original and if you're entitled to keep the ID. Again this is something you don't want to be caught Lying about.
Suppose it's down to if you think it's worth risking a 5k fine and 2years time.
Just because they not currently asking you if you're doing anything illegal doesnt make it any less illegal btw. The new offence isn't to have an illegally registered car which it sounds like you already know you have, it's to fraudulently declare MOT exemption on a car that won't be entitled to it.
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Last Edit: Sept 27, 2017 22:18:39 GMT by Dez
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Darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,724
Club RR Member Number: 39
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Sept 27, 2017 22:14:29 GMT
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WOW by the time the chinese whispers finish with this thread every MOT centre will have a crusher out back fo cars with empty washer bottles....
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hotrat
Part of things
Posts: 14
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Sept 27, 2017 22:47:02 GMT
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It's not yet clear if they will ask the tester to flag cars up, it's down to you personally to declare if it's modified or not. No one actually knows what will happen then, but the best guess is you will be sent a v627 form to declare what parts of your vehicle are original and if you're entitled to keep the ID. Again this is something you don't want to be caught Lying about. Suppose it's down to if you think it's worth risking a 5k fine and 2years time. Just because they not currently asking you if you're doing anything illegal doesnt make it any less illegal btw. The new offence isn't to have an illegally registered car which it sounds like you already know you have, it's to fraudulently declare MOT exemption on a car that won't be entitled to it. You really sound like PLOD. £5000 fine, 2 years in jail, fill in form V627 and " The new offence isn't to have an illegally registered car which it sounds like you already know you have " Wow, Only joking officer.
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glenanderson
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,135
Club RR Member Number: 64
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Sept 27, 2017 23:03:53 GMT
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How will the MoT tester tick a box on your MoT exempt car if you haven't presented it for an MoT?
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My worst worry about dying is my wife selling my stuff for what I told her it cost...
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kenb
Part of things
Posts: 604
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Sept 28, 2017 1:56:01 GMT
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More to the point, how many testers would know what is original and what isn't anyway, I'm kind of referring to the points system here and its component make up. Ok some mods are obvious, some are lot more subtle, some you would have to be a friggin genius to know. I would suspect as already said the onus is going to be on the owner to fess up at tax renewal time. But seeing as many owners haven't got a clue how to use a spanner, let alone work out what a 15% increase in power to weight ratio is, I'm not sure how they're supposed to know if their car is as left the factory
I'm not sure how they really expect this system to work in all honesty, and the threats of legal action etc etc, I can just see they have the room in prison for all those who try to dodge around the system. The casework alone would grind their legal dept to a halt. Plus can you imagine the manpower needed to inspect thousands of suspected modified cars in the first place. Cant see DVLA have the funds available for all that anyway.
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,715
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Sept 28, 2017 7:56:58 GMT
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It's not yet clear if they will ask the tester to flag cars up, it's down to you personally to declare if it's modified or not. No one actually knows what will happen then, but the best guess is you will be sent a v627 form to declare what parts of your vehicle are original and if you're entitled to keep the ID. Again this is something you don't want to be caught Lying about. Suppose it's down to if you think it's worth risking a 5k fine and 2years time. Just because they not currently asking you if you're doing anything illegal doesnt make it any less illegal btw. The new offence isn't to have an illegally registered car which it sounds like you already know you have, it's to fraudulently declare MOT exemption on a car that won't be entitled to it. You really sound like PLOD. £5000 fine, 2 years in jail, fill in form V627 and " The new offence isn't to have an illegally registered car which it sounds like you already know you have " Wow, Only joking officer. You asked a question. I answered with substantiated facts, mostly taken from the DVLA document you can't be bothered to read. . Not my fault you don't like the answer.
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