Triumph Spitfires, do they all have bad breaks??

[cjhillman]

I've borrowed my Dads Triumph Spitfire 1500 and just want to check, are the breaks shocking on all these cars?
It doesn't have a break servo and I know it recently had a master cylinder replaced (was done professionally) but it seems like pedal goes down a fair way and the last 40-30% does all the work.

Maybe it's just I haven't driven a car without a break servo before ... thought I'd check as I'm using it over the next couple of days for a few trips while it's "summer". I thought maybe it was break fade as I'd been driving for an hour and the car seemed quite warm but, it seems worse when your trying to slow up to a stop.

Any help appreciated
Chris

[Seth]

It could be that either it wasn't bled very well when the master cylinder was changed or the rear shoes haven't been adjusted correctly. Does the handbrake come up a long way too? That is usually a sign of rear shoes needing adjustment.

[cjhillman]

Handbreak seems ok, no more than on my Escort I'd say and that holds well.

I checked the fluid level which seemed fine. I guess it's mainly new fluid too as I remember it leaked most of it out of the old master cylinder .

Maybe I can try bleeding it again when I get it back to my folks.

[ferny]

I've got drilled discs on my herald and you can clearly hear when the pads touch them. The slightest pedal press makes them contact.

Check what Seth says. The brakes should be fine on the road and the pedal firm.

[MkX]

Brake fade is definitely a possibility if you'd been repeatedly braking hard over a period of time. There are updated components you can get to help counter this such as vented disks.

There are umpteen potential causes;
Does the brake pedal feel spongy? Could be a couple of micro-bubbles in the hydraulics which need bleeding out.
Is the hydraulic fluid low?
Are the brake pads / shoes excessively worn or incorrectly adjusted?
Are the disks / drums worn, pitted or contaminated?

The other thing to consider is 'expectation', if you've mainly driven modern cars with sharp servo-assisted brakes then the brakes on a 70's or 80's car won't feel too healthy in comparison.

[cjhillman]

Ok brill, will go through the list when I get chance with my Dad next week. To be honest I went out to move it before and the handbreak could be a little lower so maybe it's the drums.

I'd say the pedal travels about an inch until it becomes solid and you just have to press it hard at that point to stop. My old 80s Escort has always felt like a new car compared to the Spitfire , maybe I'm just paranoid. I did do go to town bleeding the breaks on that with new fluid last year though.

If it is a case of bleeding etc do we think I'll be ok doing a few trips in it say Manchester to north of Liverpool and taking back to stoke after?

[goldnrust]

If you're not used to driving a car without a brake servo, it will make a big difference.

I'd driven various older cars, from the early 70s onwards, all with brake servos but my first experience of unassisted brakes when I test drove my Spitfire left me questioning if there was something broken with them also! It took some getting used to, that you push the pedal till it stops, then actually apply force to slow down, rather than with a servo where how far you've moved the pedal seems to control how fast the car stops.

I would definitely check the adjustment of the drums, my Spitfire originally had a long pedal travel, which was down to poorly adjusted rear drums.

[ahebron]

Has it had the wrong size master cylinder fitted?

Adrian

[rattlecan]

I’m confused

[rr69h]

Like the others said

I suspect something's amiss with the brake system. They do need a bit of a push around the biting point due to the non-servo nature of the system, but it should be relatively easy to lock up the fronts if you jump on them. At least that's the case with my Mk3 Spitfire. Vented discs, other pads or stainless hoses all do make a difference, although only incremental ones. None of these are night-and-day improvements.

As brakes are no joke my 2 cents would be to have a professional go through the system. It sounds like a proper bleed is all it takes, but better be safe than sorry.

[ChasR]

IMHO it could be many things and there are several valid points.

IMHO the most likely causes are these, in the likeliest order:

-Discs worn out; it will affect the fade resistance moreso with them not being vented
-Cheap pads ; Getting good pads for BL cars is tricky, with most vendors stocking curse word and the decent brands no longer making them due to a lack of demand. Mintex/Ferodo/Texter are good brands to go with that can bring an improvment over the like of Veco that many now sell.
-Mismatched cylinder sizes; I've been to a number of Triumph specialists, including renowned ones where they'll fit any part onto the braking system "because it'll fit" You won't notice the difference. Erm, you do when you need it!
-Handbrake travel; This will have an effect since it will determine where the pedal travel is.
-Brake fade ; unlikely for a stock Spitfire, but you never know.

Out of those I'd say it is either a mismatched master cylinder or handbrake travel; I'd adjust the handbrake myself by how the Haynes/BL manual informs you to so as to get the best results.

How were the brakes prior to the master cylinder failing? If it felt better it is almost certainly the wrong master cylinder fitted with the handbrake being adjusted.

My 1500 had the opposite problem; Pedal travel right at the top of the pedal, with the brakes doing very little.

If the pedal feels spongy it is almost certainly air in the system; If by pumping the pedal the biting point improves it definitely needs rebleeding.

[cjhillman]

Cheers for all the information guys! I've dropped the car off now and when I'm back Sunday/Monday will go through it all with him.

Hopefully its just a bleed to sort it out as the pedal feels spongy and i'd say firm at first, then less firm with more use. It never feels like its getting worse but definitely a bit better at first. I've been checking the master cylinder and fluid after a good run to see no change.

Will check Discs/Pads and the Rear drums / cables. You definitely cant lock the breaks up in this car!

The replaced master cylinder is this one. same as the one that came off.

rimmerbros.com/Item--i-GRID005772


Heres a pic of the car yesterday while out and about (realised this thread is shy of pictures).

[carledo]

Spitfire brakes were actually pretty good - when the cars were new! Time and technology have moved on and now they are pretty curse word!

My 2 cents worth is that you car's brakes are not as good as they could be and my suspect here is the fluid is at fault, yes it's been bled, but has ALL the old fluid been removed? But also, I think 50% is down to the expectation of more than the car actually has to give! The brake discs are little better than milk bottle tops with tiny calipers and miniscule pads, there is no power assistance (you don't need it anyway, I built a GT6 powered Spit and servoed it, it was a mistake, the thing locked the wheels if you LOOKED too hard at the pedal!) Plus the rear brakes need to be adjusted manually and there are several "wrong" ways of doing this, in an age where hardly anyone understands the "right" way!

Get it ALL correct and the brakes will be "adequate", but it's an old car and the tiny wheels mean you can't really get decent modern brakes on it without destroying the look of it (this doesn't bother ME, I prefer my cars to STOP, but it is a consideration for some)

As said by others, get someone who understands the car to have a gander!

Steve