BMW - A once reliable brand - Now the most unreliable. How?

[60six]

I have a lot of admiration for old BMW's - My old 316 e30 auto, my 2002's and an e36 were really really good cars.

Been watching a lot of youtube vids lately and always enjoy Doug DeMuro as he does seem a genuine car nut - His one on the AM lagonda is always worth a watch - then I saw one about the BMW M5 - the bangled one. There are 14 catastrophic design faults in the engine alone ranging from vanos pumps to pushrod bearings - all massively expensive. Another about Nikasil lining of the heads which get eaten by the anti-freeze causing all manner of issues.

They also have a car for every number up to 8. I genuinely can't tell a 2 series from a 4 series - Isn't this going to kill off their secondhand market or are we in such a throwaway society they just don't care anymore as everything apparently is going electric anyway?

It seems to have no impact on the amount of them seen around and about, and the x6 is just like a giant 'Micro Machine' toy of the 80's.

Will their cars become reliable again or is this just the way things are now?

[Waxoyling Lyrical]

Bear in mind, the Yanks tend to drive thousands of miles, often on low-grade fuel and minimal maintenance (many are fat lazy gets, let's face it!) hence there will be extra wear on tear on their vehicles, so compared to a well-maintained European example, there's bound to be more issues which they can make some great song and dance about - there are a good many problems reported with their home-grown brands also, if the likes of Scotty Kilmer, Jeremy Clarkson, etc. are anything to go by...

[MkX]

Dec 7, 2019 21:32:49 GMT 60six said:

I have a lot of admiration for old BMW's - My old 316 e30 auto, my 2002's and an e36 were really really good cars.

Been watching a lot of youtube vids lately and always enjoy Doug DeMuro as he does seem a genuine car nut - His one on the AM lagonda is always worth a watch - then I saw one about the BMW M5 - the bangled one. There are 14 catastrophic design faults in the engine alone ranging from vanos pumps to pushrod bearings - all massively expensive. Another about Nikasil lining of the heads which get eaten by the anti-freeze causing all manner of issues.

They also have a car for every number up to 8. I genuinely can't tell a 2 series from a 4 series - Isn't this going to kill off their secondhand market or are we in such a throwaway society they just don't care anymore as everything apparently is going electric anyway?

It seems to have no impact on the amount of them seen around and about, and the x6 is just like a giant 'Micro Machine' toy of the 80's.

Will their cars become reliable again or is this just the way things are now?

I don't think it's just BMW. If you look at other manufacturers like VAG, in the late 70s / early 80's these cars were synonymous with longevity. Galvanised body, fantastically well engineered and tight. They cost proportionately more than the competing Ford, Vauxhall & BMC offerings but their lifespan was probably nearly twice as long. Quality manufacturers started to offer lengthier warranties against mechanical failure & corrosion. Unfortunately the companies eventually realised their attention to detail was costing them sales - Mr Audi fanatic would buy his A80 but  instead of coming back in 3 years time to buy his next Audi they may not see him for 5 or 6 years. People became emotionally attached to their cars and if they were still reliable and looked good they kept them. It took a while but they started designing in obsolescence, perhaps they went a little too far? Then production started to move into other countries, I once owned a Spanish built Polo, the quality really wasn't very good at all. Factor in the occasional bit of incompetent engineering design that can damn a model.

BMW is still trading well on a reputation it no longer has, the penny will eventually drop. If you want that quality buy Toyota or Honda.

As you say, there's a sea change coming, EVs. All the major manufacturers will probably end up buying in their drivetrain & battery packs from common sources so everything will be the same below the skin.

[jabbaxr]

I think a lot has to do with the rise in popularity in diesel, compared to 30 years ago, and the changes necessary to clean the emmissions from them. What I mean is, there were no EGR valves, DPF's or those godawful Dual Mass Flywheels to go wrong. It's a given that these items will have to be changed at some stage in the cars life. Plus, consumers demanded more luxuries that were only available in higher end market cars, like electric windows, heated windscreens, central locking etc. Essentially there is now more to go wrong.

However, I personally believe that the quality just is not there. Toyota were an almost bulletproof car in the 80's and 90's( rust aside), but like others, they don't seem to have the same quality as they used to.

I'm on the lookout for an E34 at the min, and know that they were esentially solid and reliable. I wouldn't chance a modern version of one.

[carat 3.6]

BMW's are fairly reliable, as said above curse word fuel and lack of servicing is the cause of many issues in America.

Mercedes went through a period of building unreliable curse word, but have got back on track now. Out of the current crop of manufacturers Nissan's and any vehicle with a ford diesel are the ones to avoid. In fact I still know a few fellow mechanics that will simply refuse to change fuel filters on a tdci due to past problems.

[stealthstylz]

It's because they're built to be cheap as chips for PCP/Finance deals. All the German stuff is curse word, the BMW/VAG/Merc scrap pile of knackered engine bits at work is verging on ridiculous.

However, especially on modern diesels but petrols too, the majority of problems seem to stem from emissions bits fitted. We rarely see "thrashed" or high mile engines, it's usually the low mileage/old biddy/one careful owner stuff (yes, the ones people jizz about for buying second hand) that get clogged up with carbon, the piston rings stop doing their job, they start burning oil then at some point the oil runs low and kills the engine. That scenario and faulty injectors melting the pistons are the main 2 faults I see.

If you want something modern-ish from this decade buy a Honda. No idea what the engines are like as I've never seen one, so they must be good

[Woofwoof]

Dec 7, 2019 21:32:49 GMT 60six said:

I have a lot of admiration for old BMW's - My old 316 e30 auto, my 2002's and an e36 were really really good cars.

Been watching a lot of youtube vids lately and always enjoy Doug DeMuro as he does seem a genuine car nut - His one on the AM lagonda is always worth a watch - then I saw one about the BMW M5 - the bangled one. There are 14 catastrophic design faults in the engine alone ranging from vanos pumps to pushrod bearings - all massively expensive. Another about Nikasil lining of the heads which get eaten by the anti-freeze causing all manner of issues.

They also have a car for every number up to 8. I genuinely can't tell a 2 series from a 4 series - Isn't this going to kill off their secondhand market or are we in such a throwaway society they just don't care anymore as everything apparently is going electric anyway?

It seems to have no impact on the amount of them seen around and about, and the x6 is just like a giant 'Micro Machine' toy of the 80's.

Will their cars become reliable again or is this just the way things are now?

I'm of a very similar mind to you. I've also had many BM's, again just like you. 2002's, E21's, E30, E34's & E32's. .All very good cars, excellent cars in many respects for their time and I'd have some of them again but I wouldn't touch a modern BMW and as for a diesel version, not a hope. The last one was an E46 and that clearly hadn't the build quality of the earlier cars. Daily motoring for me has been mainly  Japanese for many years now, yep nothing special even if I like Accords but no hassle & no surprises. I've so little interest in modern German stuff I can't really tell a 3 from a 5 Series or a C from an E-Class. That aside, I just couldn't imagine having much peace of mind running say a five year old modern BM or Merc, besides the generally complexity, it's electronic complexity that puts me off and being at the hands of a main dealer or specialist to fix the problems if they can, it's not a great position to be in and could sour the ownership experience very quickly.

Now, to keep a bit of balance. If I was in the market for a new German saloon, then why not. New car,  full manufacturers warranty and possibly bought at the right price. Still, there's a far better chance I'd be looking at a used Lexus GSF instead. But, if someone wants a new or modern BMW, Merc or Porsche they won't care, that will be the holy grail and that's that.

As for you're question on these cars becoming more reliable, there's not a hope imo unless they get them designed and manufactured in Japan or Korea !  

[Dez]

The fact PCP on a 1 series bmw is around the same price or actually a little cheaper than a fiesta ST should tell you everything you need to know.

[jabbaxr]

Dec 8, 2019 0:16:16 GMT Woofwoof said:

As for you're question on these cars becoming more reliable, there's not a hope imo unless they get them designed and manufactured in Japan or Korea !  

I can't agree. I had a Santa Fe for about 6 years. Absolute rubbish cars. Japan, with Toyota, I agree. Not as good as they were, but not as bad as Korean.

Korean cars are a large part of why todays cars are not as good as the were in the past. That POS of Santa Fe, despite me loving it with oil changes, and services, was just another junk heap. I got 120,000 miles from mine, before I heard the oil pump straining. Most were lucky to get to 130,000.  A BMW from1988 would smack it's a-rse at that mileage. As would most cars back then.

[rblote]

I bought my first BMW around 1985. I had 2 series, 3 series, 5 and 7 series. I just sold my last BMW. Not 1 of my BMW's have left me stranded. I always found them reliable, comfortable and not as expensive as some would tell you.
My BMW's (and my other cars) are always maintained to a very standard. No short cuts ever. With that in mind I don't agree for 1 bit that they are unreliable etc etc.
We needed a 7 seater vehicle. An X5 was no option as they are to high to get in. We ended up buying a Odyssey. A great car but massively boring to drive. It will be good for possible a million KM's but I can't wait to get back in a BMW.

I am almost sure that if you maintain your car, regardless of brand, to a good/high standard your car will be reliable. I find that a broken/burst radiator on a 30 year old car (just as an example) has nothing to do with reliability. To me it has to do with being 30 years old....

[norfolkshire]

Dec 8, 2019 6:17:38 GMT rblote said:

I bought my first BMW around 1985. I had 2 series, 3 series, 5 and 7 series. I just sold my last BMW. Not 1 of my BMW's have left me stranded. I always found them reliable, comfortable and not as expensive as some would tell you.
My BMW's (and my other cars) are always maintained to a very standard. No short cuts ever. With that in mind I don't agree for 1 bit that they are unreliable etc etc.
We needed a 7 seater vehicle. An X5 was no option as they are to high to get in. We ended up buying a Odyssey. A great car but massively boring to drive. It will be good for possible a million KM's but I can't wait to get back in a BMW.

I am almost sure that if you maintain your car, regardless of brand, to a good/high standard your car will be reliable. I find that a broken/burst radiator on a 30 year old car (just as an example) has nothing to do with reliability. To me it has to do with being 30 years old....

I quite agree with your comments, I have been a fan of Land Rovers since I first steered a Series 1 into a set of bi-fold aluminium garage doors at 7 years of age; that was when the 86" model had not long been released.

Since that event I have owned 12 different models over the next 60+ years, currently using a Defender 90 (300tdi), which suits me down to the ground.

As with all of these vehicles, maintenance has been an integral part of the ownership, being carried as per advised schedules, and also any anticapted preventative spannering as well.

These vehicles, as we all know, are basic Meccano kits; no frills to any of them.

With care they keep going as intended, and continue to do so, if maintained, and used in a sensible manner.

The old saying that 'you don't get anything for nothing' rings true, no matter what vehicle you choose to buy, etc...

As for BMW, and other high profile manufacturers loosing their way, isn't this just a prime example of the world in general, and how the accountants have come to rule the manufacturing base?

Oh well back to my utilitarian transport then.

[stealthstylz]

Dec 8, 2019 6:17:38 GMT rblote said:

I bought my first BMW around 1985. I had 2 series, 3 series, 5 and 7 series. I just sold my last BMW. Not 1 of my BMW's have left me stranded. I always found them reliable, comfortable and not as expensive as some would tell you.
My BMW's (and my other cars) are always maintained to a very standard. No short cuts ever. With that in mind I don't agree for 1 bit that they are unreliable etc etc.
We needed a 7 seater vehicle. An X5 was no option as they are to high to get in. We ended up buying a Odyssey. A great car but massively boring to drive. It will be good for possible a million KM's but I can't wait to get back in a BMW.

I am almost sure that if you maintain your car, regardless of brand, to a good/high standard your car will be reliable. I find that a broken/burst radiator on a 30 year old car (just as an example) has nothing to do with reliability. To me it has to do with being 30 years old....

Unfortunately that's not the case. There are several engines where proper maintenance doesn't seem to affect them blowing up. Oil pump failure is pretty common now they've all gone to crappy vane pumps with stop/start functions.

[60six]

It just seems to me that serious mistakes are being made where the same mistakes were made in the past - Discovery TDV6 big end bearings slipping and covering the oil feed resulting in snapped crankshaft? I thought that would of been an obvious problem at the design stage? I guess that 80% of cars being not driver owned and PCP payments covering the warranty people just don't worry?

There will be so many of these cars in landfill/tin can manufacturing in the future.

edit: forgot that the tdv6 was under ford ownership, not bmw - but such crappy design fails - The two manufacturers that come out on top are hyundai and suzuki.

[Dez]

Dec 8, 2019 10:33:47 GMT stealthstylz said:

Unfortunately that's not the case. There are several engines where proper maintenance doesn't seem to affect them blowing up. Oil pump failure is pretty common now they've all gone to crappy vane pumps with stop/start functions.

Very true. I remember when I first got into cars, oil pump failure was pretty uncommon as a cause of engine failure. They were the old cast iron gear type pumps that just churned on forever. You couldn’t even buy pumps or parts for a lot of engines, at rebuild you just washed it out and chucked some new gaskets on it. The things that used to kill engines was stuff like snapped cambelts and dropped valves, or a total lack of maintenance .

Nowadays you see loads of stuff with failed pumps wrecking engines well within service intervals and at fairly low mileages, and the aftermarket makes pumps for most cars. VAG engines seem very susceptible to spitting them out wrecking the entire motor in the process. Planned obsolescence or just curse word design? Personally I think a vane-type oil pump is a terrible idea in any engine.

[oddball]

Dec 8, 2019 3:27:36 GMT jabbaxr said:

Dec 8, 2019 0:16:16 GMT Woofwoof said:

As for you're question on these cars becoming more reliable, there's not a hope imo unless they get them designed and manufactured in Japan or Korea !  

I can't agree. I had a Santa Fe for about 6 years. Absolute rubbish cars. Japan, with Toyota, I agree. Not as good as they were, but not as bad as Korean.

Korean cars are a large part of why todays cars are not as good as the were in the past. That POS of Santa Fe, despite me loving it with oil changes, and services, was just another junk heap. I got 120,000 miles from mine, before I heard the oil pump straining. Most were lucky to get to 130,000.  A BMW from1988 would smack it's a-rse at that mileage. As would most cars back then.

Korean cars then and now are like night and day, though. I work in car rental and we have thousands of them on fleet. Very rarely have any problems with them, just like Japanese cars.

[ChasR]

Dec 8, 2019 1:44:00 GMT Dez said:

The fact PCP on a 1 series bmw is around the same price or actually a little cheaper than a fiesta ST should tell you everything you need to know.

Yes, it tells you about depreciation. That's simply how PCP works .

It's why some cars are unusually cheap, and why Pandas are pricier.

Anyway, back to the topic .


As for BMWs, they've always had issues despite what people say. I know my uncle's 2002 was unreliable compared to his then 'hated' Datsun 120Y.

-I'm not sure about back then but Kugelfischer pump failures are feared just as much in the 2002Tii fraternity as it on the similar W108/9 280SE and 300SE cars; One friend of mine broke his engine for spares due to the latter failing (it's a £2.5k fix on a 280SE).
-I've seen few dead E32s and semi-killed one myself in the past (cracked head) ; A lack of servicing or the wrong oil used used to starve the cams on the M30s. Heads aren't unheard of cracking on them either
-Most E28s suffer with steering box mouting issues, which most having been 'fixed' with washers welded on to strengthen/repair the mounting points
-Scuttles rotted like crazy even in the late 90s and 00s on E30s as did wings.
-My dad's FBMWSH E36 325tds SE put him off buying BMWs for a very very long time. In short, Gearbox oil cooler lines went, Climate Control Unit went. What really annoyed him was when the LP fuel pump died, followed shortly by the High Pressure Pump; these are not uncommon failures to E36 folk; they don't affect every car but they do happen. Yes, the car had 250k from 130k (FBMHSH for all of its life.). BUT, the fact that we've taken 2 or 3 Mondeo MkIII 2.0s and a 3.0 V6 to that mileage and beyond without an issue (one is still running on 380k with only an HG to show for it along with dampers and bushes etc.) says something.
-Most of the M engines even from the E28 era aren't unheard of for having bottom end issues. Some are worse than others, but likewise, even some of the worst suspects are now on 6 figures on their original bottom ends.


Also, Doug Munro IMHO is pretty well respected but like such people, will still enjoy sensationalising things; after, all, that's what gets hits on YouTube and why people love watching Love Island and all that stuff . I can assure you the faults can be fixed MUCH cheaper in many caes. For example

-Gearbox pumps are not £2k like he says. Decent companies like CPC and Buckharrt engineering can sell a motor or recon pump for around £600ish.
-iDrive screens are not a £1k fix from the dealer. Recon units are £300 and if you are handy with a soldering gun, free .
-I had a very very well known and respected VANOS specialist tell me that the VANOS units are unavailable from BMW for my E46 M3 and that it would be £600 off him for one and almost sub £1k fitted; I almost believed him but I had to know for myself. It's funny, as I rebuilt mine using a kit he didn't advised me to use (I've now down 20k on that kit FWIW) for £180, which other trusted specialists have used also with success, including Redish Motorsport and ETA Motorsport. As for the VANOS unit being unavailable? Complete and utter BS. I called BMW, and they quoted me with discount £450 as a next day delivery, so it wasn't the end of the world. Fitting it wasn't too hard either. Going gentle on the torque figures is the key, which is why some of the DIY kits fail; gorillas tigthten them way past the 8Nm figure, which causes and seals and solenoid blocks to leak/fail.

In short, don't believe all the journos and do your own research.

[vitesseefi]

Dec 8, 2019 10:33:47 GMT stealthstylz said:

Dec 8, 2019 6:17:38 GMT rblote said:

I bought my first BMW around 1985. I had 2 series, 3 series, 5 and 7 series. I just sold my last BMW. Not 1 of my BMW's have left me stranded. I always found them reliable, comfortable and not as expensive as some would tell you.
My BMW's (and my other cars) are always maintained to a very standard. No short cuts ever. With that in mind I don't agree for 1 bit that they are unreliable etc etc.
We needed a 7 seater vehicle. An X5 was no option as they are to high to get in. We ended up buying a Odyssey. A great car but massively boring to drive. It will be good for possible a million KM's but I can't wait to get back in a BMW.

I am almost sure that if you maintain your car, regardless of brand, to a good/high standard your car will be reliable. I find that a broken/burst radiator on a 30 year old car (just as an example) has nothing to do with reliability. To me it has to do with being 30 years old....

Unfortunately that's not the case. There are several engines where proper maintenance doesn't seem to affect them blowing up. Oil pump failure is pretty common now they've all gone to crappy vane pumps with stop/start functions.

Indeed. There are some shockers out there from companies who used to know better - to the level of class actions being won in the USA (Which doesn’t stop the dealers denying there is a problem here).

BMW 320D of certain ages with chocolate chain sprockets......
VAG TFSI with epic oil consumption due to defective rings - or eating the high pressure fuel pump cam lobe.
VAG 2.0TDI with injector problems, or the improved versions with a whole raft of problems with balancer shafts/oil pump drives (that’s a real built to fail example)
VAG 2.5 TDI V6 cam lobe failures & injector pump failures

Timing chain/guide/tensioner problems with just about anything German that has them. Reality is that they don’t last much longer than a belt and are much harder / more costly to change.

Toyota petrol engines and excessive oil consumption due to defective rings.

Progress? Hardly......

Nick

[ruairi50]

I think the more electronic Gizmos you have in a car the more that can go wrong with them

[budgetbond]

Very very interesting points my old 6 series great car tho it was seemed mechanically r eliable when it worked and didn't seem to be too rusty despite its age(tho it had been restored) but was electrically terrible bu t surely every car that age would be?
problem is it's quite difficult to establish reliability relative to across all different brands in the present day I don't know what the best ways/indices are and people use on here?
But it's even more difficult comparing cars relatively across different eras to compound it without the nostalgic rose tinted glasses placebo affect, a bit like comparing older and modern footballers for example.
I wonder if there's a way of comparing older bmw s and other manufacturers reliability accurately -ish from now and back then?
Anyone any info on that at all?

[georgeb]

Dec 9, 2019 1:33:04 GMT ruairi50 said:

I think the more electronic Gizmos you have in a car the more that can go wrong with them

Do you own a Range Rover P38?

Your comment may be true, but also black boxes to sort out most electrical problems are readily available now. Well, for the notorious P38 anyway. Ask me how I know!

I always wondered why most old school engines, except some exotica, had chain driven cams, yet were mainly non-damaging if the worst came to the worst. Then someone decided, no doubt in the name of production cost and immediate fuel efficiency, it was a good idea to tighten up piston/valve tolerances and then keep them separated by an elastic band.

Hmmm.