brachunky
Scotland
Posts: 1,316
Club RR Member Number: 72
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it, so why would they bother you if you own it? Can’t see it me sen’ Nothing stopping you buying the unit as ‘Joe Bloggs’ property services, then renting it to yourself. TLDR at end If Joe Bloggs property Services rents to Joe Bloggs then Joe Bloggs Property Services has to pay tax on that rent. Also, if the rental amount looked implausable (too small or large) HMRC would have a good look to see what was going on. So that's not the way to go though I like your thinking. A quick primer on business rates. Rateable value is the estimated rent that a unit would attract as of 2015. Each council will use a multiplier to calculate the rates actually payable. Around my way the multiplier is about 0.5. So if the Rateable value of a unit was £6,000 then the rates charged per year would be £3,000. If you rented a unit for commercial purposes you would be paying £6,000 to the Freeholder and £3,000 to the council. I think the only problem with rates for us would be if the unit had been previously large/expensive enough to attract them. Then the council might not want to permit change of use to something for which they wouldn't get the money. But anything with a rateable value of £12,000 or less attracts no rates if it's your only one (a bit more involved than that but approximately correct). If I found myself with a unit with a rateable value of more than £12,000 I would be inclined rent it out since £12,000 a year is always handy. Rates are calculated by sq.ft per floor. So if you were paying rates in a unit with a big high roof and you added a mezzanine you could double your rates or make your premises become due for rates. That's why places like B&Q, Screwfix & Argos often have single storey warehouses with very high racking and forklifts. Going a bit off track there. Be careful with the stuff on Rightmove as it is often the Lease for sale, not the Freehold. Ie you are buying the obligation to pay the rent for X years. Unlike renting a flat, if you buy a commercial Lease of something you cannot just give a month's notice. If there's say 8 years or 15 years remaining on the Lease, you are on the hook for that long unless you can sell the Lease to someone else. You're also on the hook for repairs. A Leasehold is very different to casually renting. Freeholds more typically come up in auction or with commercial agents. Freehold commercial property values depend almost entirely on the Lease and the Leaseholder, this is to our advantage. Take 3 identical units side by side. The first, a is Freehold of a unit with a 5 year Lease to KFC & will sell for perhaps double the identical unit next door with a 5 year Lease to Unknown Chicken Purveyors UCP. KFC is a big known company unlikely to default and with assets elsewhere to seize in lieu of rent. UPC is an unknown who could disappear in the night. To use the terminology, KFC is a good covenant and UPC is not such a good covenant. But third unit is identical but empty & is the least valuable as a business asset. Firstly there is no rent coming in and no Leaseholder to pay for the repairs so it's costing the Leaseholder money. Secondly the Freeholder could have to pay the rates as they have several properties so no business relief. A unit that's What's useful to us can be a real problem to the seller if empty. I can go on about buying at auction if anyone's interested. Okay I've rambled a bit so: TLDR: Understand the difference between renting, Leasehold ownership and Freehold ownership. Leasehold is probably the worst for us. If the would rent for less than £12,000 or you aren't running as a business rates shouldn't be due. But check. Investigate whether your (change of) intended usage will be a problem. Car tinkering and a bit of welding more likely to be acceptable if the unit is surrounded by heavier use car repair, paint and exhaust places. Less likely to be acceptable if other units are food related or next to housing. Some excellent information dear sir so thank you!
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Dec 27, 2019 11:29:46 GMT
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There are a lot of assumptions being made in some peoples posts - it would be difficult to genuinely run has 'Charity' - you also run the gauntlet of the 'Charity Commission' whom yield far more power than you think - you could run has a 'Trust' providing that you offer a service that benefits others and is not just benefits yourself for tax avoidance reasons - the better & much clearer defined route to take is to run has a 'not for profit organisation' - That way you can charge a rent to others that share the unit to cover the out going expenses - has already stated most small units would probably be exempt from business rates but it can widely vary between local authorities - you will also find that some leases for commercial buildings also attract VAT to the lease & likewise with commercial property for sale - which can be a significant lump of money that needs to be accounted for / factored in
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Last Edit: Dec 27, 2019 11:31:13 GMT by Deleted
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Dec 27, 2019 13:38:56 GMT
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As it happens, I've just done this. A few months back I bought a semi-derelict workshop building for use as my own garage. (Oh - hello, I'm new, in fact I registered just to make this post. I'll do a proper intro soon, but now I'm here I've started so I'll finish!) It took years of searching, and quite a few false starts but in the end I found my place almost by accident. It was originally a blacksmith's forge (although I don't think the building is original), and became a garage in the 1950s. At one time it was a Yugo dealership. It was last used by a motorbike mechanic who moved out a few years ago, and it then stood empty. It has B2 business use and qualifies for a 100% discount on business rates (conditions apply). It's big enough to accommodate 8 or 10 cars, plus it has a large front yard and a little bit of land at the back. It was amazingly cheap (more than a Ford Fiesta but less than an Audi RS5) and it's in a lovely country location with only one near neighbour, but only a couple of miles from civilization (ie a branch of Greggs). The previous owner had applied for planning permission to demolish the building and build a house on the site, but that was turned down. From that moment the site became a bit of a white elephant. From a property developer point of view it had no value, and as the building was pretty much derelict it was becoming a problem. The owner decided to cut his losses and flog the place off quick and cheap so it became someone else's problem. I'm not too bothered about the condition, because there's nothing wrong that can't be fixed. Probably the biggest catch is that the place is in Wales...and I live in west London. Every time I want to pop out to the garage it's a 170 mile trip. But there was no way I was ever going to find a place like this any closer to home. I realised it was now or never. I'm now thinking "Oh no, what have I done?" - but in a good way...
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Dec 27, 2019 14:05:27 GMT
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That look ace, perfect & if there are no neighbours, you can’t upset anyone 😀
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Dec 27, 2019 15:59:55 GMT
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The one and only neighbour did turn up on the first day I was there - I had literally just arrived, and hadn't even got the door open - and mentioned that he worked nights and he hoped I wouldn't make too much noise.
I don't think he works nights at all, or at least not regularly. He's around in the daytime suspiciously often for someone who should be asleep in bed. And for someone who is concerned about noise, he certainly doesn't mind revving his motorbikes full blast...
The trouble is, he's a relative newcomer. I think my building was already empty and disused when he moved in next door, so he's never known it with anyone on site and things going on. Then I turn up, and he thinks it's all going to be chaos and mayhem.
However, I'm aware that I'm the newest kid in the village, so I've been very discreet and kept my head down. In the end the building itself will be soundproofed as far as possible, and I've even bought a sound-deadening fence to go between his property and mine. I think I'll be able to vanish into the undergrowth quite effectively.
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Dec 27, 2019 16:32:23 GMT
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Buy him out too, problem solved. Security could be a bit of a problem though unless you live there.
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Dec 27, 2019 17:46:49 GMT
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Looks a bit posh for a yugo dealership!!
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'80 s1 924 turbo..hibernating '80 golf gli cabriolet...doing impression of a skip '97 pug 106 commuter...continuing cheapness making me smile!
firm believer in the k.i.s.s and f.i.s.h principles.
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Dec 27, 2019 21:52:29 GMT
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Buy him out too, problem solved. Security could be a bit of a problem though unless you live there. It's in a very low crime area. The neighbour leaves his gate and shed (where he keeps his motorbikes) unlocked - very obviously unlocked, with open padlocks hanging off the doors. He says this is perfectly fine and he's never had a problem. I'm not so confident - it only takes one dodgy person to come by, after all... The motorbike mechanic who had the place before me was very security conscious (he came from Blackpool, which I think it's fair to say is a bit more edgy than rural Wales) and fitted a set of massive steel security doors behind the flimsy wooden outer doors to the main building. The windows all have bars on them, welded to frames which are bolted into the walls, and the bolts are secured with blobs of weld, so they can't be turned. It's an impressive job. I've just put some stout gates across the entrance. I've also built a hoarding across the open part, where the doors have fallen off, although that's not really for security as such. It's more to stop people looking in. Generally the whole place is going to be a bit of a fortress....but very discreetly done.
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I've been looking around a few places over the last couple of years, my general feeling is cities & larger towns can be problem areas. From experience I know folk in several smaller towns & villages (several parts of Wales, South West, and North East) who think nothing of leaving the house unlocked and the keys in the car ignition. Tip : for anyone thinking of buying a place (house or workshop) in an unknown area, you can check local info & crime stats etc at several websites including www.streetcheck.co.uk/postcode/sa991aa
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Looking at all the comments on here, I’m so glad I bought an old farmhouse nearly 20 years ago with its own barn!
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Looking at all the comments on here, I’m so glad I bought an old farmhouse nearly 20 years ago with its own barn! This is the way to go and despite what I currently own (fitted workshop / storage / parking etc) the small farm / small holding type property with more space is very much under consideration over the next few years
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Dec 28, 2019 14:15:44 GMT
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Buy him out too, problem solved. Security could be a bit of a problem though unless you live there. It's in a very low crime area. The neighbour leaves his gate and shed (where he keeps his motorbikes) unlocked - very obviously unlocked, with open padlocks hanging off the doors. He says this is perfectly fine and he's never had a problem. I'm not so confident - it only takes one dodgy person to come by, after all... The motorbike mechanic who had the place before me was very security conscious (he came from Blackpool, which I think it's fair to say is a bit more edgy than rural Wales) and fitted a set of massive steel security doors behind the flimsy wooden outer doors to the main building. The windows all have bars on them, welded to frames which are bolted into the walls, and the bolts are secured with blobs of weld, so they can't be turned. It's an impressive job. I've just put some stout gates across the entrance. I've also built a hoarding across the open part, where the doors have fallen off, although that's not really for security as such. It's more to stop people looking in. Generally the whole place is going to be a bit of a fortress....but very discreetly done. I was just going to state that discretion might be advised , any noticeable spending of lots of money on it might make certain members of society interested ... the sort that drive around all day looking in gardens and yards etc .
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Dec 28, 2019 15:09:04 GMT
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It's in a very low crime area. The neighbour leaves his gate and shed (where he keeps his motorbikes) unlocked - very obviously unlocked, with open padlocks hanging off the doors. He says this is perfectly fine and he's never had a problem. I'm not so confident - it only takes one dodgy person to come by, after all... The motorbike mechanic who had the place before me was very security conscious (he came from Blackpool, which I think it's fair to say is a bit more edgy than rural Wales) and fitted a set of massive steel security doors behind the flimsy wooden outer doors to the main building. The windows all have bars on them, welded to frames which are bolted into the walls, and the bolts are secured with blobs of weld, so they can't be turned. It's an impressive job. I've just put some stout gates across the entrance. I've also built a hoarding across the open part, where the doors have fallen off, although that's not really for security as such. It's more to stop people looking in. Generally the whole place is going to be a bit of a fortress....but very discreetly done. I was just going to state that discretion might be advised , any noticeable spending of lots of money on it might make certain members of society interested ... the sort that drive around all day looking in gardens and yards etc . Good point ‘Have you seen what that rich bloke from London has done to the old place? Must have loads of cash, he’s spending money like water, they’re all loaded from down there etc etc’ Hope not, but it’s a bit late when all your kit’s gone missing When we moved from herts to Norfolk my eldest was described at school as that rich girl in the big house, never mind that it was practically derelict and we had spent basically everything buying the place ( and more besides!)
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Dec 28, 2019 16:51:10 GMT
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Most of the people around the area (including my neighbour) seem to be English. I've hardly heard any Welsh accents, and so far I've only heard 2 people speaking Welsh.
I think it's the kind of area where you move to if you want a country lifestyle, but you can't afford Gloucestershire. You keep going west until property becomes affordable. There certainly seem to be lots of English incomers in the area - I suppose I'm one of them, in a non-residential kind of way, but as I actually grew up in Gloucestershire I reckon that makes me nearly Welsh!
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lmr
Part of things
Posts: 50
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Dec 29, 2019 20:55:13 GMT
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Watching this thread with interest. I have been renting a unit for years, and have been quietly wondering whether I should buy one. I have had a house with a large garage in the past, but it is difficult to stop the smell coming into the house, so I like a separate space.
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ToolsnTrack
Posted a lot
Homebrew Raconteur
Posts: 4,117
Club RR Member Number: 134
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Well I'm still on the hunt in the Glasgow region for a bigger rent unit, so if anyone wants to jump in with us for the next year or so hit me up.
In the meantime I'll keep hunting. Interesting proposition would be buying a farm as mentioned, and simply living next door to the unit!
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Dec 30, 2019 12:19:04 GMT
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Some interesting food for thought. I think my biggest restriction has to be as Dez mentioned, bloody finding one. I've been searching the Glasgow region and clearly the shift in industry here has completely scuppered the old industrial stuff. There just isn't any suitable units available. I suppose this all stems from my utter frustration at making this a financially viable option when renting, or rather, renting solo. When there is 2 or 3 of you splitting rent for a larger unit it works, but once you go to a smaller workshop the rent doesn't even come close to halfing, indeed sometimes it barely drops at all. Maybe I just need more friends! You really do feel the isolation in Scotland though, any form of community for tinkering and such just doesn't seem to happen up here, god knows I have tried over the years... Glasgow you say? I currently share a unit with a few guys in Linwood but we're getting shifted from there in a couple of months as the owner has sold the land. Now on the hunt for somewhere new to store and tinker with the toys. I've been struggling due to cost, as you say splitting the price can save a lot but the guys I'm currently in with are all moving to private garages or council lockups for the time being so I'm on my own. its a struggle!
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Dec 30, 2019 18:40:30 GMT
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I used to rent half a barn from a farmer to build my landrover. It was the only way i could have space to do it. The main problem was that it was half an hour drive from where I live. this meant from you cannot just pop in for an hour or so. It took me 4 year to build the car this way, and that was when I was single!. Now I have house with a double garage, and can do an hour or so. This is crucial, as just an occasional hour is all I have with a young family. So If you have money to buy a unit, is it not better to buy a bigger house with enough space? At least then your workshop is close to home.
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Last Edit: Dec 30, 2019 18:41:51 GMT by dieselmax
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Dec 30, 2019 20:20:59 GMT
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heavyspanners The types you need to worry about belong to the unofficial caravan club, drive new 4x4 pick ups and tow German double wheeled caravans,yet don't pay tax but offer to fix roofs and do drives at "good prices sir , cash only, i'll drive you to the cashpoint if you like"
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Needs a bigger hammer mate.......
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‘Have you seen what that rich bloke from London has done to the old place? Must have loads of cash, he’s spending money like water, they’re all loaded from down there etc etc’ When we moved from Herts to Norfolk my eldest was described at school as that rich girl in the big house, never mind that it was practically derelict and we had spent basically everything buying the place ( and more besides!) This is a daily issue. As a white guy in the Philippines, I'm rich, because I'm a white guy in the Philippines! Never mind the fact that when we had two years without work, I'd pawn a ring to buy food for the family, or Madam would borrow money at usery rates to do the same, I'd still get hit on everywhere I went. We survived and coming out the other side. Meantime, I'm still very conscious of my daughter's security, as Daddy's a white guy. Most of the people around the area (including my neighbour) seem to be English. I've hardly heard any Welsh accents, and so far I've only heard 2 people speaking Welsh. My folks retired to Wales going back many years, my cousin preceded them and opened a business in the same town. I admit this was back in the, "Come home to a living fire, buy a cottage in Wales," days, but there was a lot of resentment, even though my folks house was new and my cousin employed locally. Sorry for the rant, but never be complacent about attitudes. Me? I'd just move in there. Hate London anyway, they're all horrible people. See? Sorry ToolsnTrack, hope you get sorted soon.
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