Revision Referrals? Why are They Different across Brands?

[ChasR]

"I don't know what 3 Series it was, it was a '98"
"What's this funny business about Mercs, It was an N-reg E Class. I don't do numbers! Why do people do those numbers? It annoys me!"

And this is the basis of my question. Obviously the two examples above are very much showing why we differentiate ; the E36 and E46 in the same year, so year cannot always be the differentiator. It's the same deal with Mercs. Jags? Didn't the Series 3 overlap the XJ40?

Anyway, there is logic behind the madness. This is obvious to many, but it's interesting to see other viewpoints. I guess the question is, why bar the above do quite a few of us refer to cars by their internal designation. Off the back of that, why others off their generation status? You never hear of anyone talking about a Mk2 3 Series, or a Mk4 S Class. DC5 Integras aren't generally called something else! If you go off the latter, it's actually hard to tell! Going from the start (and probably too soon anyway!)

220S Fintail (W110)
280SE/300SEL (W108/9)
xxxSE(L) (W116)
xxxSE(L) (W126)
xxxSE(L)/Sxxx (W140)
SxxxX (W220)
And so on

Then you have the Jags
S1 XJ
S2 XJ
S3 XJ
XJ40
X300
X308
X350
X358
X351

So, discuss. Why aren't all cars either purely referred by year, or by the generation (i.e 1st/2nd or Mk1/2 or Series etc.)

It's time for some shots .

[droopsnoot]

Referring to them by year doesn't help, because most people think of the year of their car by its registration, not by the year it was manufactured - and the latter is what would be needed to get the correct model. Plenty of end-of-line cars stick around until the next registration year, confusing the issue.

[stealthstylz]

It's still confusing. Especially so when you're talking to owners club type people as they tend to do the probably correct, but also confusing and dull version that doesn't fit in with the conventional version that everybody else uses, due to facelifts etc

[Paul H]

I suspect that vehicles were usually referred to as 'Mk2', 'Mk3' etc if that was what the manufacturer called them, or if the internal designation wasn't commonly known. However might the use of internal designations in many cases be to do with the VIN plates? E.g. does a BMW E36 or Mercedes-Benz W123 list it's E or W number on the VIN plate?

It's nothing new though - Riley only ever marketed the 1945 to 1955 RM series as the 1 1/2 Litre and 2 1/2 Litre, but the chassis plate and much of the official technical literature would state the internal designation of whether it was an RMA, RMB, RME etc, which is now why that is how those cars are described.

[comfortablynumb]

It’s even more confusing when certain makes ( yes Range Rover I’m looking at you!) revise models part way through a production run and then have change over models with half old stock parts and half new, makes parts ordering a nightmare!

[welshpug]

PSA stuff is quite easy if its euro, there are some that some of the dealer parts guys don't recognise though, sometimes compounded by the parts listings.

205 has phase1, phase 1.5, phase2, there was some crossover in trim mechanicals and wiring changes across all three so going by registration date is never accurate, the collection of certain parts, trim colours etc would identify a particular time the cars were built, though most of the parts are so easily interchangeable even that can easily muddy the waters.



306 had the instantly recognisable phase 1 to phase2 change, but late in production there was a subtler revision which most in the enthusiasts world will call phase3, interior trim colour changes, more airbags added, crystal front headlamps, RF central locking over IR, trim less rear glass, colour coded roof trims thinner side rubbing strips and badge changes.

the dealers and parts systems don't recognise this further than an "afer RP number ****" change in part numbers !

[niwid]

Apr 29, 2020 9:29:31 GMT welshpug said:

PSA stuff is quite easy if its euro...

205 has phase1, phase 1.5, phase2,

Yet isn't it weird I would refer to an AX as either Mk1 or Mk2. Same with with the 106 and saxo

[Dez]

It’s little down to the cars themselves and more to the nationality of the owners in my experience.

The Europeans (especially the Germans) use specific factory model codes to avoid any confusion.

The British are obsessed with givingn them stupid MKwhatever designations, even though the factory never referred to them as such and they often have model codes.
(Referring to fords and VWs this way is particularly stupid. They all have model codes). This also leads to arguments about if a car is a true new mark, or a facelift, so you get terms like mk2f used to describe stuff.

The Americans are year obsessed, because cars did change appearance literally every year over there, so it makes more sense to them.

[welshpug]

Apr 29, 2020 9:46:51 GMT niwid said:

Apr 29, 2020 9:29:31 GMT welshpug said:

PSA stuff is quite easy if its euro...

205 has phase1, phase 1.5, phase2,

Yet isn't it weird I would refer to an AX as either Mk1 or Mk2. Same with with the 106 and saxo

106 is typically S1 or S2, as in series

[welshpug]

I think the ford transit is case in point here, the newest is typically called a mk8, the previous a mk7, the one before that with the same body a mk6, the smiley a mk5, before that mk4 and 3 all with essentially the same body.

ford call it 2nd 3rd and 4th gen, with facelifts/revisions!

[BenzBoy]

Apr 29, 2020 9:52:01 GMT Dez said:

It’s little down to the cars themselves and more to the nationality of the owners in my experience.

The Europeans (especially the Germans) use specific factory model codes to avoid any confusion.

The British are obsessed with givingn them stupid MKwhatever designations, even though the factory never referred to them as such and they often have model codes.

I suspect it's more down to the influence of native manufacturers and their convensions rather than stupidity. Jaguar, for example, using the "mark" nomenclature to denote a model revision (loosely and sporadically). I would be interested to know what mainland Europeans refer to the Mk2 Escort as. Also Opels are referred to as A, B, C but Vauxhalls, up to a point it seems, are referred to as Mk1, Mk2 etc. So you'd get a Mk3 Cavalier in the UK but a Vectra A in other parts of Europe. Presumably because they were marketed as such in their native lands.

Then you get references which seem to appear from nowhere. Aussies refer to the 160 Nissan Patrol as MQ (for early) and MK (for late models) but there seems to be no official Nissan source for these references.

[MiataMark]

The other classic case is the MX5, normally referred to as NA, NB, NC (not sure about the current model, ND) instead of Mk1-4.

Land Rover Discovery is strange the MK1 (early and 300, even if it had a V8) and Mk2 (D2) had distinct changes (facelifts) but stayed the same model, but D3 & D5 are basically the same models...

[stealthstylz]

Then you get Toyota who just called a whole model of cars Mark 2 for donkeys years lol.

BMW had the best/simplest system to start with but even that's ruined now.

[adam73bgt]

Japanese stuff generally seems to be referred to by code, you also get "Zenki" and "Kouki" to describe the pre and post facelift versions of many cars, like the Nissan S13, S14, RX7 FC, FD etc.

Apr 29, 2020 10:47:25 GMT MiataMark said:

The other classic case is the MX5, normally referred to as NA, NB, NC (not sure about the current model, ND) instead of Mk1-4.

Curiously though, I can't recall the MX5's getting referred to as Zenki or Kouki, for the NB for example you tend to see it as NB for the pre-facelift or NBFL for the facelift, although that could just be how we do it in the UK...

[SamV8]

Apr 29, 2020 10:58:36 GMT adam73bgt said:

Japanese stuff generally seems to be referred to by code, you also get "Zenki" and "Kouki" to describe the pre and post facelift versions of many cars, like the Nissan S13, S14, RX7 FC, FD etc.

Apr 29, 2020 10:47:25 GMT MiataMark said:

The other classic case is the MX5, normally referred to as NA, NB, NC (not sure about the current model, ND) instead of Mk1-4.

Curiously though, I can't recall the MX5's getting referred to as Zenki or Kouki, for the NB for example you tend to see it as NB for the pre-facelift or NBFL for the facelift, although that could just be how we do it in the UK...

The mx5 seems to be an exception to the rule, I have seen them referred to as mk1, mk2 mk2.5 mk3 etc... I have never seen the mk2.5 named as nbfl

[adam73bgt]

Ah of course, Mk2.5 as well, anything goes with MX5's

[niwid]

Apr 29, 2020 10:22:38 GMT welshpug said:

Apr 29, 2020 9:46:51 GMT niwid said:

Yet isn't it weird I would refer to an AX as either Mk1 or Mk2. Same with with the 106 and saxo

106 is typically S1 or S2, as in series

Oh god, it is isn't it. So 'phase x' for 205, 'mkx' for saxo and ax, 'series' for 106. Amazing for a bunch of cars that are made by the same group and aren't far off being essentially the same car

[ratchart]

As someone who suspects they have dyscalculia (like dyslexia but with numbers and maths) I hate cars with ,model numbers rather than proper names. i can never get to grips with which ones are which. The German makes seem to be the worst. Whenever I read things about Mercedes or BMW  I'll see all sots of of numbers bandied around by people who know what they're talking about but I can never visualise which are which unless I have some sort of visual reference. 

The thing about referring to cars by their year only really works for older American cars as they had a tradition of the annual model change, so you could distinguish a 1969 Chevy Camaro from a 1968 model because the body did run for a year, whereas a European car might be introduced in the middle of a year and the same model continue for 30 months with few changes. There were exceptions to this rule however, like the original Mustang which was released in April so was known as 1964 and a half.

[urbanaw]

Apr 29, 2020 9:52:01 GMT Dez said:

It’s little down to the cars themselves and more to the nationality of the owners in my experience.

The Europeans (especially the Germans) use specific factory model codes to avoid any confusion.

The British are obsessed with givingn them stupid MKwhatever designations, even though the factory never referred to them as such and they often have model codes.
(Referring to fords and VWs this way is particularly stupid. They all have model codes). This also leads to arguments about if a car is a true new mark, or a facelift, so you get terms like mk2f used to describe stuff.

The Americans are year obsessed, because cars did change appearance literally every year over there, so it makes more sense to them.

Exactly this. 

We need to separate the "general" approach from the "UK" approach.

VW T25 is the best example that comes to my mind. VW T25 does not exist. It is a T3 transporter (Caravelle etc). When reading UK (specialists) websites you may actually believe it is the other way round. 

It is a national thing. 

[Dez]

Apr 29, 2020 13:43:07 GMT urbanaw said:

Apr 29, 2020 9:52:01 GMT Dez said:

It’s little down to the cars themselves and more to the nationality of the owners in my experience.

The Europeans (especially the Germans) use specific factory model codes to avoid any confusion.

The British are obsessed with givingn them stupid MKwhatever designations, even though the factory never referred to them as such and they often have model codes.
(Referring to fords and VWs this way is particularly stupid. They all have model codes). This also leads to arguments about if a car is a true new mark, or a facelift, so you get terms like mk2f used to describe stuff.

The Americans are year obsessed, because cars did change appearance literally every year over there, so it makes more sense to them.

Exactly this. 

We need to separate the "general" approach from the "UK" approach.

VW T25 is the best example that comes to my mind. VW T25 does not exist. It is a T3 transporter (Caravelle etc). When reading UK (specialists) websites you may actually believe it is the other way round. 

It is a national thing. 

Exactly.
As BenzBoy says though, over here I think it may stem from jaguar using it (pretty much the only manufacturer to ever have done so). Because it’s viewed an upmarket thing people think it’s classy to use it.
It’s dumb.

Uk VW owners are some of the worst but also the most hypocritical. In Europe a mk2 golf is a typ19 to literally everyone. But over here it’s a mk2.
But if you own a polo it’s perfectly normal to say ‘6n polo’ 🤷‍♂️
I guess that’s mostly cos no one can agree what mark a 6n is though....

Most of the times it’s just causes confusion. I’m on a ford ranger owners group and they refer to them as mk1/mk2/mk3/mk4. Given the mk1 ranger is actually the mk4 Mazda B-series rebadged, this is beyond stupid, they all have separate 4 digit chassis codes that are printed everywhere all over the vehicle and are easy to see and prevent any confusion so why not just use it.