ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,194
Club RR Member Number: 170
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Jan 23, 2021 20:06:42 GMT
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Right folks.
I recently picked up a Mondeo ST220 Estate for a reasonable sum. However, the sinking feeling has begun.
In short
-It had a knackered slave cylinder when it went into my local garage -It got sold on to another garage in the 'loop' a while ago -He then changed the clutch and slave cylinder, but the clutch twice! The first time, it slipped. The second time, it was pouring out fluid!
As far as i can tell, it seems he may have installed a 6 speed clutch into a 5 speed car. It runs the MTX-75 'box.
Checking the aftermarket catalogues, Schaeffler, and Valeo only sell clutch kits for the MMT6 6 speed 'boxes, not the 5 speed items. The 5 speed slave cylinder however is listed on most sites.
I've checked 7Zap, and it seems this clutch is unique to the ST220. Balls!
Annoyingly, I suspect the original clutch is in the bin, leaving me with a clutchless car.
Bar converting it to an MMT6 6 speed (if that would even work with the ECU!), who can make a clutch?
FWIW, a clutch is available from Ford, but it's £300 and that's before I buy a concentric slave cylinder for it! I was hoping to spend £150 all in for both and without going down the route of a cheap clutch. That said, National sell a clutch, but I'm unsure as to their quality.
If anyone can help, the OEM part nos are as follows:
1208752 1423922 - Remanufactured RM2S717540VA
It would be a shame to break the car or sell it on, but if I can't find a clutch, it may have to come to that.
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Last Edit: Jan 23, 2021 20:21:16 GMT by ChasR
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stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,839
Club RR Member Number: 174
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Jan 23, 2021 20:24:21 GMT
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CG Clutches in Leeds
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Jan 23, 2021 21:10:46 GMT
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Send me the reg and I'll give my parts guy a call tomorrow
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Jan 23, 2021 21:41:44 GMT
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Precision Clutch in Henstridge, Dorset will make you one if they can’t find one....
Nick
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1967 Triumph Vitesse convertible (old friend) 1996 Audi A6 2.5 TDI Avant (still durability testing) 1972 GT6 Mk3 (Restored after loong rest & getting the hang of being a car again)
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,194
Club RR Member Number: 170
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Jan 23, 2021 21:42:28 GMT
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Cheers @stralthstylz , I’ll give them a call. I’m going to see if the garage has the original clutch. Send me the reg and I'll give my parts guy a call tomorrow Y111 DTS. As a word of warning, the REG brings back results for 6 speed clutches with the MMT-6 ‘box, not the 5 speed MTX-75. For anyone wondering, I have checked other V6 clutch nos. They are different.
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Jan 23, 2021 21:59:25 GMT
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ETIS shows the same clutch as fitted to the 2.0 duratec of the same age, cross references to this
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Jan 24, 2021 10:06:42 GMT
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£300 spunds reasonable, I found a German ford dealer selling them for 737 euros !
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,194
Club RR Member Number: 170
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Jan 24, 2021 13:38:46 GMT
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Cheers for the help folks. ETIS shows the same clutch as fitted to the 2.0 duratec of the same age, cross references to thisGood to see. On the catalog I'm looking at, they don't cross reference. I've seen some indication that the clutch may be fitted onto the 2.0 Duratorq TDDI, but that no. is different on 7zap as well. ford.7zap.com/en/car/99/1.15405,6.19112/5/1534/15220/66075/ While, I am tempted to get a 2.0 LUK clutch, a few things are putting me off, especially working with some of the changes in th engines world. -ETIS, from what you're saying, may run back to the other cars, most likely as a cost saving (1 derivative is easier to stock than 3, and what may have been deemend a little too heavy for a 2.0 back then may now be acceptable. We don't know if this has been put forward to LuK. The nos. I put in the original post don't go into an LuK/Schaeffler decoder or Autodoc etc. . It would be interesting to see if the 2.0 ones do, as it would answer that. I know I sound big headed there and I may be (feel free to reign me in!). Working with shall we say, very very similar nos. and seen similar confusion come about, I'm trying to not get caught out. -This car has a history with clutches. As far as I can tell the following happened Does eTIS give you an manufacturing part no, like what I've given above? From what I can tell from working where I do, the remanufactured nos. don't tend to be recognised but the MY engineering nos do. I think Mondeo ones start off something like 1S7T, albeit, this may be different. That would confirm for sure if the LuK above would be OK. I'd appreciate it if you could provide the engineering number if possible . It's odd that LuK list a clutch for the 2.0 Duratec, but not the ST220 5 speed after all. Went in for a master cylinder change (this does look to be correct from what I've seen thankfully). But it was always the slave that had gone. -PO I bought it off put in a new slave and clutch assembly. It worked fine but it slipped. He had a new one fitted ; Maybe that was a 2.0 clutch -Fitted it again, but with a clutch this time. It worked fine for a week and then it began to leak. No, I didn't mean for that to rhyme! . I may go and have a chat with him, but the more I wonder about this, even if the chap isn't computer savvy, I'm wondering if he knows about this clutch availability issue. From what I've seen before however, he tends to go with what the motor factors recommend. I'd normally risk a cheaper clutch, but given these are a pain to change, especially with this being a V6, I'd rather get it right. For those wondering, it's subframe out, steering rack disconnected, gearbox carefully slid out without nipping coolant pipes. Any experience of National clutches? Are they any good, or one to run a mile from? They seem to list an ST220 clutch... Yes, I know I should just get the £300 item, but for a car that cost £650 to be a bit of fun, I'm trying to save as well where I can. Silly I know. Hopefully I won't have to break this, and some X referencing can be confirmed.
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Last Edit: Jan 24, 2021 14:03:52 GMT by ChasR
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Jan 24, 2021 14:18:45 GMT
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From what I can see on ETIS the flywheel is the same for both the MTX75 and the MMT-6 gearboxes. 401440759102 is the LUK part number that I could find.
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Any experience of National clutches? Are they any good, or one to run a mile from? I've got a National clutch in my Firenza, been there for about 6k miles, but that equates to quite a lot of years as it doesn't get out much, so I'm not sure if that's any help. I have an idea it's a remanufactured clutch, as I recall there was some talk of wanting my old one back in exchange. I didn't do that and nothing more came of it - I was trying to chase down a problem and wasn't sure my old clutch was no good.
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,194
Club RR Member Number: 170
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Jan 25, 2021 20:51:16 GMT
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I came pretty close to getting a National Clutch! Well, it's time this topic came to a close. Some of you will know how this will end! I feel like a bit of a fool TBH! TL:DR : I rang around, even called up OEMs and bought a clutch from Ford. I know, I'm an idiot. Long Story
Before I commmited my decision on a clutch, I wanted to know where I stood and what the history on this car was. After all it's had 2 clutch changes in two months. That's a bit of a record! With this in mind, I did the following -Rang up Ford and asked what my discount got me : £320 was the cost, but this time with a slave cylinder ; the kit itself was £240. -Rang up the chap/garage I bought it off. They couldn't quite remember what clutch they put in, but they thought it was an LuK, stating the motor factor it came on. -I then rang up said motor factor. I actually rang up 3! Here is how it went -MotorFactor 1 (who supplied the clutch) : "We don't supply a clutch for your car". I questioned how they knew this, as IME, motor factors don't tend to know what 'box your car has, but he was claiming his system showed it. Maybe he knew more than he was letting on? -ECP : They thought I could get a clutch until I pushed them for a 5 speed item ; they also list mine as a 6 speed. 5 speed? Nada. Not with the OEM no. they had or the other two from the list in my OP were provided. -GSF : A mate works there. They claimed they had a clutch for a 5 speed, but when they gave me the no. to put online (as it's cheaper than what he can do these days), yup, that was also a 6 speed. curse word. I was at my wits end here. I really really didn't want to spend £300-320 on a clutch kit. An LuK kit for my M3 is £200 FFS! Sure, I know an E46 M3 clutch is more common than a 5 speed V6 clutch in a Mk3 Mondeo, but it's the principle right? I then went a bit crazy. I called Schaeffler UK. They also informed me that they no longer list a clutch for my car. Sachs also don't. Both do list a slave cylinder. With this, I thought I could either sell the car, break the car, or just shut up and buy the Godforsaken clutch made of Myr. I was going to buy the LuK Slave cylinder. However, in a way to soften the blow of bad luck striking twice, I got the lot for Ford ; after all, if one of the other parts go, you can guarantee Ford or GSF/other Motor factor will blame the clutch! Part of me wanted to chance a TDCi or 2.0 Duratec Clutch on the car. But I would hate for £200s of labour to go down the drain just to take a chance on a clutch that "might" work. I can't really do it at my unit as I'm lacking a ramp, and I'm aware of what a pain that subframe can be to remove. That and even if I did want to try it on the floor, my M3 still isn't finished! I think I remember now why I don't like having two project cars . On that note, it's time I went to cry in my beer. But, then again, with what's on the horizon, two estate cars will come in handy, probably still be cheaper than renting a van for house moving and fun after that! I can't really move things if I don't have a clutch in the car! Or am I simply being deluded? . To add insult to injury, the very reliable Mk4 Mondeo decided to curse word it's driver's window regulator ; it barely opens! It never rains but it pours. Moral of the story? Even if you remember parts being sold for said car, never, ever assume you can get it 6 years down the line.
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Last Edit: Jan 25, 2021 20:57:11 GMT by ChasR
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So did you get a new clutch in the end? I was waiting for the punch line that it was a 6 speed but someone had fitted a 5 speed gear knob in it's past.
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oilyt
Part of things
Posts: 169
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Might be worth asking on the stdrivers uk or noble forums?
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,194
Club RR Member Number: 170
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Jan 26, 2021 17:31:24 GMT
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So did you get a new clutch in the end? I was waiting for the punch line that it was a 6 speed but someone had fitted a 5 speed gear knob in it's past. I wished! That's regarding it being a 6 speed. Well, that's kind of a lie and kind of not. I could have got a 6 speed clutch for alot less! But yes, I got a new clutch in the end. Quite a bit of dough really. I've only paid more for a clutch on a Porsche 944 S2 ; That was £500, albeit then, a 944 on a good day was worth £4k, and the labour was more intensive than the ST220. Funny really, this place still sees an old Mondeo as 'new', but parts shortages on old and unusual cars in the 18-30 group are very much real. B5.5 Passat spares have been discontinued by a greater degree by VW for example. But the 5 speed was only made for 1 year, putting it down to 1000 cars that were 5 speeds most likely. I did find out something good though. Driving this at the farm, I thought it sounded quite throaty, in an induction kind of way. It turns out the 5 speeds made a little more power, accelerated a little better, and had dual air intakes from the factory. Not bad! So in a small way, there is a silver lining somwhere, even if it's a Wrigley's chewing gum wrapper! I also don't have the fully variable single fan. On the 3.0 V6 I had before, the controller died, and that almost caught us out on a few occasions www.fastfordmag.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/FAF382.buyers.jk3_.pdfMight be worth asking on the stdrivers uk or noble forums? This question has been asked by a couple of folks, albeit not many. Bear in mind only half of the ST220s made are now no more ; I suspect they have been parted out as items like the Recaro seats and HID lamps were always desirable. If we assume early cars were parted out more, that probably leaves 400 cars affected with this clutch problem. LuK do make clutches for the other V6 Mondeos ; the ST200 I am unsure about. This one was almost parted out by the garage I bought it from believe it or not. Maybe this is the Crusher Mondeo . Nah, scrap that. Anyway, I did try a Noble forum, but they don't seem to run a DMF, and their slave cylinder via the sites are almost what my clutch cost. Ouch! I did call a Noble specialist today and he thought I was nuts for calling him, wondering how I could not get a clutch for my car. From what I can tell, I suspect it will be £500. If anyone else with an ST220 5 speed reads this, Ford do supply the clutch still. Another company can make them, as they still have the schematics of the old clutch. However -It's £1.2k with a DMF including -It will take 5 weeks to make The chap was very helpful over the phone. That clutch however, is an organic fast road clutch. www.atspeedracing.co.uk/products/ford-st220-3-0-v6So it looks like I did find someone who could make it, albeit, at quite an expense!
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Last Edit: Jan 26, 2021 17:32:15 GMT by ChasR
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adam73bgt
Club Retro Rides Member
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Jan 26, 2021 17:52:49 GMT
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While you have the proper Ford clutch in your hands, might be worth getting hold of a Duratec or other motor factors clutch that "should" work and measure/compare the two on the bench?
Can always return the Duratec one if it is different, and if by some chance they're the same dimensions you might have saved a few quid?..
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,194
Club RR Member Number: 170
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Jan 26, 2021 21:47:10 GMT
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While you have the proper Ford clutch in your hands, might be worth getting hold of a Duratec or other motor factors clutch that "should" work and measure/compare the two on the bench? Can always return the Duratec one if it is different, and if by some chance they're the same dimensions you might have saved a few quid?.. This thought has popped into my head. That said this car has seen two clutches last year. The first one slipped, and the second one has a leaking master (this appears to be a 6 speed item in it, but I'll no doubt find out when it comes out). There is no doubt more will be revealed when the 'box comes off. I do find it odd that Ford fitted around 4 clutches to these cars, but well, from what a friend (well, supplier) has said, Ford are worse than a company we both know with complexity! I'm tempted to ask on the forums if someone can send me a couple of Duratec 5 speed clutches over mind you, from both a TDCi and a 4 pot Duratec-HE. While I've spent a small fortune, it would be good to see if others "may" be saved, at their own risk obviously. That and the more I've read into MTX-75 differences, it seems V6 'boxes are different. From what I can tell, the bellhousing is different to the diesels anyway, as is the input shaft length from other derivatives. Even a Focus RS clutch isn't a straightforward fit into another Zetec it seems without grinding bellhousings. What doesn't help is I'm storing the car at a mate's, rate free. So I really shouldn't take the mic with keeping it there. The plan is to get it mobile, and take it home . After all, in theory, some of this cost can be written off as a storage cost .
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Last Edit: Jan 26, 2021 21:52:21 GMT by ChasR
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bricol
Part of things
Posts: 285
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Jan 26, 2021 21:55:25 GMT
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These guys list a Mondeo ST220 3.0 V6 clutch in performance clutches. Found them very helpful and very quick to sort a small issue with a plate they supplied. helixautosport.com/catalogues.html
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,194
Club RR Member Number: 170
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Jan 26, 2021 22:02:48 GMT
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These guys list a Mondeo ST220 3.0 V6 clutch in performance clutches. Found them very helpful and very quick to sort a small issue with a plate they supplied. helixautosport.com/catalogues.htmlI did check with a retailer. It's for a 6 speed unfortunately . I may call them for future reference however, and there is no doubt someone else may have this issue, even if the odds are low.
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Last Edit: Jan 26, 2021 22:03:33 GMT by ChasR
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Jan 26, 2021 22:54:39 GMT
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While you have the proper Ford clutch in your hands, might be worth getting hold of a Duratec or other motor factors clutch that "should" work and measure/compare the two on the bench? Can always return the Duratec one if it is different, and if by some chance they're the same dimensions you might have saved a few quid?.. This thought has popped into my head. That said this car has seen two clutches last year. The first one slipped, and the second one has a leaking master (this appears to be a 6 speed item in it, but I'll no doubt find out when it comes out). There is no doubt more will be revealed when the 'box comes off. I do find it odd that Ford fitted around 4 clutches to these cars, but well, from what a friend (well, supplier) has said, Ford are worse than a company we both know with complexity! I'm tempted to ask on the forums if someone can send me a couple of Duratec 5 speed clutches over mind you, from both a TDCi and a 4 pot Duratec-HE. While I've spent a small fortune, it would be good to see if others "may" be saved, at their own risk obviously. That and the more I've read into MTX-75 differences, it seems V6 'boxes are different. From what I can tell, the bellhousing is different to the diesels anyway, as is the input shaft length from other derivatives. Even a Focus RS clutch isn't a straightforward fit into another Zetec it seems without grinding bellhousings. What doesn't help is I'm storing the car at a mate's, rate free. So I really shouldn't take the mic with keeping it there. The plan is to get it mobile, and take it home . After all, in theory, some of this cost can be written off as a storage cost . Could be a case of the concentric slave cylinder being different rather than the clutch itself. Too long, it'll not release and the clutch will slip. To short and the slave will over-extend and leak. Nick
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1967 Triumph Vitesse convertible (old friend) 1996 Audi A6 2.5 TDI Avant (still durability testing) 1972 GT6 Mk3 (Restored after loong rest & getting the hang of being a car again)
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adam73bgt
Club Retro Rides Member
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What doesn't help is I'm storing the car at a mate's, rate free. So I really shouldn't take the mic with keeping it there. The plan is to get it mobile, and take it home . After all, in theory, some of this cost can be written off as a storage cost . Ah fair enough, if nothing else it would be interesting to see what the differences are, may be something fairly minor. Ford usually love a bit of commonality and penny pinching so a bit of a surprise that they'd make the parts so unique!
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