Tell me about..Beetles! (sorry!)

[Lankytim]

Aplologies for another "tell me about" thread...

Ive been getting a bit of beetle horn recently. Ive tried to put it off for years but if I don't own atleast one one day ill be really annoyed. Thing is I don't really know a huge amount about them. Seperate chassis, air cooled boxer in the rear, rust e.t.c thats about it!

I'm thinking I'm going to be priced out of beetle ownership by scene tax. Anything less than a grand looks to be a major project and there seems to be some real shonkers out there! Ive had a look on different sites dedicated to volkswagens but I really don't go in for all that dub scene stuff.... if you know what I mean. Rusty tatty ones go for more than clean ones, whats all that about?

Anybody on this site got any views about beetles, good/bad? What are they like to live with, are they suitable as a daily?

do tell!

[guz]

if you wanna pop up to ng14 6pe i'll let
you have a play in one of mine.

[dollywobbler]

They're fine to live with and pleasant to drive - if not exactly exciting. Which I guess is why people spend so much pepping them up a bit! Very competent in standard form which is a credit to them.

Get a Renault 4CV instead! 22bhp FTW!

[Lankytim]

guz said:

if you wanna pop up to ng14 6pe i'll let
you have a play in one of mine.

Woo, may take you up on that if I can get over there soon. Very generous.

[Thrasher]

They're very much like marmite.

Although they can grow on you !

Watch out for bodged everything unfortunately, that said - everthing is doable or mendable or replaceable.

and mine is for sale.. cheap !

[ajchopper]

There great.Watch out for lots of welding.. ::)And always grab the engine pully,and tug,Any play and the engines on its way..Apart from that there aint much...
Heres a pic of mine,,,

[guz]

we'll take this for a run around the farm and
then go around it picking fault, bought it with
short t+t but no engine/gearbox for £100.

[Samage]

So-called scene tax tends to be much heavier on pre-'67 Bugs. For maximum rear-engined VW fun for less pennies, go for a nice late 60s/early 70s car, where bargains can still be had. If you're not bothered about zero road tax, a 1303 model is worth looking into, mainly because they're cheaper, and drive loads better due to actually having front suspension. ;D The tax-exempt 1302 also has this setup, but is a bit rarer than the 03.

The payoff is that the later cars also rusted worse than early ones, so you need to be extra vigilant for rust and bodges. Also beware of ringed cars, sadly it's getting increasingly common to find '74 and '75 Bugs wearing the VIN from something pre-72.

Oh, and needless to say, for bargains stay out of the specialist VW mag classifieds, you'll need to look in less obvious places for the real gems.

Other things to watch out for are badly-tuned and neglected engines, often the cause for unreliablity. Properly maintained, the VW engine just keeps on going - whilst their reputation for reliability is somewhat exaggerated, it's not entirely unfounded either. ;D

If you want a tuned motor, get a stocker and do it yourself. It's the only way you can be sure the job's done properly!

In stock guise, the Beetle comes in 1200, 1300, 1500 and 1600 flavours. It's said the 1500 is the best all-round engine (meaning there is a small premium to pay for it. It's also the rarest.), whilst the 1200 is the slowest but most indestructible. 1200 and 1300 cars usually come with drum brakes all round, whilst 1500 and 1600s, assuming they're not lesser models with a bigger engine put in, came with discs up front. A lower capacity model with an upgrade to front discs is a welcome bonus. Because the drums are pathetic.

Gearbox wise, 4-speed manual usually. Clutchless "semi-auto" models occasionally pop up, essentially a manual with no clutch. Quirky, but gearbox repair parts hard to come by for the semi-auto models. On a normal manual box, a short-shift kit is desirable, due to the standard box feeling like a bowl of thick porridge with metal chunks in. A 1500-spec gearbox is a desirable feature due to it being "longer legged" than the standard transmission, making it better for motorway cruising.

If you intend on using the car in cold weather, for the love of Geoffrey Archer make sure the heaters work. Main areas of weakness are the heater channels in the sills, which can rot, and the heater flaps which regulate the flow of warm air. These can stick shut (or open, thus roasting the occupants in the summer!) or the cables on them can break, and they're a proper pain in the backside to get at. Also make sure the network of pipes from the exhaust heat exchangers are intact.

Other than that, just look for the usual bodges on old cars. Y'know, chicken wire, filler, painted-over grot. The usual stuff.

And to finish, here's mine.

[Dez]

ive had vws for about 7 years now, and the best piece of advice i can give is don't buy one.

[the_munkeh]

rust is your enemy, other than that I personally had no trouble with any thing else! wizards prone to extra bodgery though. my old summer cruiser >

[ampex456]

If you're avoiding the "dub scene", then that's the major problem neatly avoided. Don't buy one off anyone who wears VW t-shirts, says "dude" a lot, or posts on VW forums in txt spk.

[Pillock]

The one test you must do on an engine is to pull the big pulley at the bottom towards and away from you. Any 'thunking' as it moves is bad news and means a rebuild (it's called end float). Pretty much anything else is fixable, given that the barrels and heads unbolt, all the intake comes off with a few bolts, and there's no watercooling at all. As simple as it gets.

They rot like fooook - heater channels (sills) and under the battery (lift the rear seat up) are your main areas. Remember wings unbolt and are peanuts to buy so don't worry if they're rusty, they probably will be.

They're a hoot to drive but top out at about 50bhp so don't expect the world. Handling is OK but gets worse on 'slammed' cars with lots of bump steer.

Parts are easily available from GSF and Euro. I was amazed to ring GSF Sheffield up on a Saturday, and an hour later be in posession of a fuel tank for a 65 bug off their shelf. Not too pricey but there's a big market for cheap and nasty stuff, you're often better off spending a little more.

Plenty of scope for mods, cheap and easy all the way up to £5k engines. Massive wheel choice, helped by big market for adaptors to older VW, Porsche, Ford etc.

Don't forget the early-mid 70's "super beetle", the 1302 and 1303. Slightly different in that they have struts instead of torsion bars, and the 1303 gains a 'proper' dashboard and curved windscreen. Often cheaper as they're the unloved offspring but I really rate them, handle better and just as easy to work on. If you look at one of these, check the frame head up front - rot here can usually be terminal.

[bbq]

Ah Tim, where do I start? I spent much of my Apprenticeship welding these bloody things back together as I had a 1962 Split screen camper and all the local VW guys migrated to the garage I was working at.
Reliability. By todays standards they don't have any. It really is a bad engine (ducks for flaming), although by the 1940's standards that it should be judged by, it's amazing. The reputation for reliability was made when everything else was sidevalve and needed the tappets adjusting every 200 yards. It can be made pretty awesome though (and pretty reliable) by use of modern replacement parts, so all is not lost.

Your biggest enemy though, is rust. Beetles could compete with an Alfasud in a rust-off. If you want a cheap one you may get lucky and find one just languising due to the sheer number still in existence, but unless you find some doddery old fecker who's had it from new and has got too old to drive it you need to be seriously careful that you're not buying someone elses bodge up/rust bucket/death trap. Where do they rot? Everywhere! Be very careful when inspecting one and someone with you who really knows the model. Luckily just about every replacement panel is available and the ruggedly simple construction means they're relatively simple to restore.
You cannot be too careful when it comes to checking Beetles for rust, because if you're not a competant welder then many of them will cost fortunes to restore to a safe and roadworthy condition. Solid ones are out there but you may have to be very patient and critical before you find one for sensible money.
All that said, I love them (although I really don't like the scene) and would definitely recommend one as a car you must own at some point in your life. They are utterly individual and unlike any other car you'll own. They're also bags of fun.Just don't expect to cruise down the motorway at 90 in one and expect to get there!

Go for it- I promise I won't tell the guys on TB!

[Rhodrich]

I really don't get why everyone's talking as if Beetles rust any more than any other car. Actually, they had high quality steel (at least in the 60's), and very few rust traps. The reason there are still so many of them about now, it that they actually didn't rust as much as other cars of the era. Yes, there will be welding on most of them by now, but no more than for any other marque, and since all panels are available, it's not a problem.

I've owned aircooled VWs now for 12 years, and I've never broken down in one (though I'm tempting fate saying that now....). The key is regular servicing - again like any other classic car. They are simple, and reliable - just look at the one that followed the Top Gear guys across Namibia.

The big problem, is that there are so many 'custom' (meaning bodged) ones about. VW owners generally don't like spending money on bugs these days, and what money they do spend is on alloys, lowering and big engines, rather than general maintenance.

Buy a stock height one, with low mileage that's never been 'customised', and you can't go wrong.

My '64 Bug had 60,000 miles from new, and was solid as a rock, with no welding ever done. All I ever did to it was keep it serviced, and it never let me down in any way, until it met it's demise this time last year, courtesy of a taxi driver. I now drive a VW412, again with low mileage and no rot, and I can't see that causing me any problems either (tempting fate again.)

Go for it! They're not the best selling car in the world ever for nothing (I don't count the Corolla, as it's changed shape so many times).....

[garethj]

dez said:

ive had vws for about 7 years now, and the best piece of advice I can give is don't buy one.

Why? I've had VWs on and off for 20 years and the best advice I can give is go in with your eyes open.

rhodrich said:

The big problem, is that there are so many 'custom' (meaning bodged) ones about. VW owners generally don't like spending money on bugs these days, and what money they do spend is on alloys, lowering and big engines, rather than general maintenance.

Buy a stock height one, with low mileage that's never been 'customised', and you can't go wrong.

What he said.

I wrote this for Volkszone a while ago, worth a read before buying one.

Stand back and look at the body. Does it look like it's been hit? Does the car sit evenly side to side? Check that the gaps around the doors and front and rear lids are uniform. Look in the front, take the spare wheel out and look for signs of crumpled or rusty sheetmetal. Is it rusted around the windows? Look for rust in the gutters in the roof.

Get down on the ground and survey the floorpan and the bottom of the sills (heater channels in VW-speak because they channel the heat from the heat exchangers on the exhaust to the front footwell) for rust. Use your fingers and start tapping around. On really rusty cars, I've actually put my fingers right through the body!

Go up top and start tapping around the body. You should hear a hollow, metallic sound. A dull thunk is evidence of body repair. Especially check the rear quarter panel (imagine a big square between the back edge of the door, the front edge of the rear wing and the running board - this area is a prime place for rust and iffy repairs)

Open the doors and look at the sills behind the running boards, and the corners where these panels attach to the body. Look at the lower door hinge area. Lift the carpet up and have a look inside, particularly around the front end of the heater channels. Lift the rear seat cushion up and look at the area around the battery. You can also see the back edge of the heater channels and this area is well known for being rusty. Also look at where the sheet metal goes upwards towards the rear seat and the heater tubes come from the engine. This area is double skinned and time consuming to repair properly.

Get down on the ground and check the inner wings for rust, especially around the lower wing bolts. The rear bumper supports are also a classic rust area. Most cars will have at least some rust in these areas, and you'll have to ask yourself if this is something you want to tackle, or do you want to wait for a better candidate? Too many people dive blindly into a rusty car with have no idea what a huge undertaking it is!

Try and evaluate if any repairs have been done well, or if it's just patches put over rusty metal.

Now check the front end. Grab a front tire at 12 o'clock and push in and out. Feel for looseness and play. Then grab at 9 and 3 o'clock and push in and out. At this point you'll know whether the front end needs rebuilding or not. Pre '66 cars have kingpins and linkpins, later ones have balljoints. Both are rebuildable.

Check the wear on the front tires. Is it even, or are they worn excessively on one side or the other? While there, check the back of the brake drums for evidence of leaking wheel cylinders.

When you drive the car, feel for excessive play in the steering wheel. There should be no more than three quarters of an inch. The car should track smoothly and go where you point it, and return to a straight line when you let go of the wheel. If the car tends to wander, or is all over the road, the front end has issues. Excessive play is sometimes as simple as a steering box adjustment, but is also an indicator of a worn steering box, tie rod ends, bent tierod, or bad alignment. If there's shimmy in the steering wheel, this is most likely a worn steering damper.

Also listen and feel for clunking over bumps in the front end. If your car is a '66 or later and has noticeable clunking over bumps, this is a sign that the ball joints need to be replaced. You can do a visual inspection. If they look flattened, and the grease seals are shot, they need replacing.

Next, drive the car and feel for smooth gearchanges. Does the transmission howl or whine? The car should shift smoothly and should not "clunk" between gears. It should also downshift smoothly. If not, it could be as simple as a gear lever adjustment, or the synchros could be worn out. Difficult gearchanges down into any gear is a sign of worn synchros, 2nd is common for this.

Next take it up to 10mph in first gear and take your foot off the accelerator. It should not pop out of gear. Try it again just to be sure. Continue through the gears and test each one the same way. 20mph in 2nd gear, 30mph in 3rd gear and 40mph in 4th gear. If it pops out of any gear, the transmission will need to be replaced.

Excessive clunking when you accelerate and decelerate is a sign of weak or broken transmission mounts. Watch for the gear lever to move. (In severe cases the accelerator pedal can even move up and down.) The parts are cheap, but the procedure to replace them is involved.

Check the brakes. They should be smooth and effective and stop the car in a straight line. Pedal play should be half an inch to one inch. The handbrake should work and the adjustment should just be three to four clicks.

Do all the electrical items work? A good sign is if the interior light over the door works. If a non-essential item like this is operational, that's a good sign for the rest of the system.

Now that you've driven the car, go back and look at the engine. It should still be nice and cool in the engine compartment. An air-cooled engine is a relatively clean engine. If it's filthy and covered with oil, that's a bad sign. Grab the dipstick. It should be warm and not hot. If it's hot, that's another bad sign. Check the oil. Does it look like it's been changed in the last 10 years? Check the tension on the fan belt. It should be half an inch. Go back and start the engine. It should start easily by just a turn of the key without touching the accelerator pedal. Does it idle smoothly? How is the exhaust? You should be able to hear exhaust leaks. Run your hands around the outside of the exhaust system and feel for leaks.

If you're not sure about the condition of the engine, do a compression test. All four cylinders should have at least 100 psi and be within 10% of each other.

You need to check an engine for crankshaft endfloat too. Grab the bottom pulley (with the engine switched off......) and push-pull in line with the crank to check for wear in the thrust bearing. If you can feel it, it's ok. If you can see it, it's bad! I think the figure is around 0.15mm. If an engine's got more it'll still run, but it'll be pounding the bearings and giving the crankcase hell so don't pay top money because it'll need a full rebuild, crankcase, new crankshaft, you might as well get new pistons & cylinders while you're there.... heads too, you get the idea. Look on the bright side, you might be able to reuse the dynamo

Does everything in the car work? Beetles aren't exactly laden with equipment but the windows should all wind up and down smoothly, all lights and horn should work, windscreen washer etc. The obvious MoT checks.

Gareth

[garethj]

And this is a few bits about the different engines, from a post on here:

They break down now because owners don't look after them. Put them in any other car designed in the 1930s, 40s, 50s or 50s and they'd be broken down a lot sooner. In fact some owners would probably break a crowbar if they were only playing in a sandpit

For the time they were very reliable, you can't compare it to a modern engine any more than you can compare a 1930s aircraft with a modern one. I saw a post about a Ford Duratec or something?? I'm sure that engine will be as good as anything else in 2057 too

As well as being reliable, they were cheap. Really cheap! Cost less than an Austin 1100 in the early 60s, plus you had a fighting chance it would actually start in the morning. However by the 70s other cars were getting more reliable, and the Beetle's issues of cramped interior (that windscreen is so close you read the road like braile), iffy heating (mostly warm enough but difficult to control) and the handling of rear engined cars were shown up.

Go back to the early 50s and see what a Beetle is. Designed by a brilliant Engineer who'd built Grand Prix winning cars, in fact the front and rear suspension was straight off an Auto Union GP car. It was cheap, very well made and would probably do twice the distance of most other small cars. Not for no reason was it popular in the US, even in the early 60s when America launched its own range of compact cars and most other Europeans went home.

Engines through 1960 have the dynamo support cast into the engine case, after '61 they were bolt on, and that's an important thing to note. Earlier engines really don't like being tuned, mostly because the crank doesn't like the extra forces of higher revs, compression... all the stuff that people like to add. It was built to drive as standard from the factory, and other than a little light supercharging, that's what you should stick with. They were 1136cc (25bhp) and from 1955 1192cc (30bhp)

After '61 the 1192cc engine made 34bhp and that engine pretty much stayed forever, at least as far as the UK was concerned. Other than a few oilway tweaks in the 70s it was made until imports stopped in 1978. Single port per head, tiny carb, all done to restrict breathing and revs which combined with short stroke is why VW engines lasted so long. 3900rpm is your lot.

In 1965 the 1300 was introduced with the longer throw crank from the 1500 VW Van (and Type 3) engine. The pistons are different too but it's the same bore as the 1200. Power rocketed upto 40bhp with a slightly bigger carb, bigger valves and a more playful cam. 4000rpm was where this huge amount of power was made.

I've had loads of old VWs but there's something about these old 1300s, if you were lucky you got a special one. More care during manufacture? Who knows, but if you've got a good one it'll rev like crazy (relatively speaking, it's no Honda S2000) and go like hell (as above).

In 1966 they introduced the 1500cc engine and this made 44bhp with quite a bit more torque. Again there was a slightly bigger carb, valves and the cam was just a whisker more adventurous. Due to the increased torque they raised the final drive ratio to give 19.8mph per 1000 revs in 4th. 1200s and 1300s had 18.9mph per 1000 revs, still a lot higher than most cars of the time!

The 1500s also got little disc brakes at the front and softer torsion bars at the rear with a Z bar which helped tame the rear suspension handling.

In 1971 they dropped the 1300 and 1500 and introduced the 1300 twin port, and 1600 twin port. Thanks to better breathing, the new 1300 made 44bhp, same as the old 1500, although torque was down a bit and it revved to 4100rpm I think. These twin port heads can crack between the exhaust valve and the spark plug so check whenever you pull and engine apart. Those with a keen ear can tell when the engine is running

The 1600 twin port made 50bhp at 4100rpm, suffered the same problem with cracking heads but otherwise would shoot you down the road at 81mph. The 1500 and 1300 T/P would do 78mph, the 1300 S/P would do 75mph and the 1200 would do 72mph.

The speed of a Beetle comes up on Volkszone every so often, fair enough we've all seen speedos go a lot higher than what I posted above. But a Beetle responds very well to a light tailwind or downhill, but there are owners who'll swear blind their Beetle will regularly see 90mph. It might on the way there, but won't on the way back.

The 1600 used in the VW vans had lower compression to limit the heat, so only made 46bhp instead of the Beetle's 50bhp.

The 1971 twin port engines had improved cooling; the oil filter was moved outside the fan housing in its own little doghouse (called a doghouse cooler) and this let more air go down to No3 cylinder. Previously they'd got around this by retarding the timing on No3 so it ran cooler. This means that whenever you check the timing, make sure you're on No1, not No3!

As for running issues, keep to the service schedule of valve adjustment, oil change, plugs, points etc every 3000 miles and you won't go far wrong. Change the gearbox oil every 30,000 miles or as soon as you buy it because you can be damn sure it hasn't been done since 1975.

[BenzBoy]

I think scene tax has pretty much evaporated from Beetles - it's all about Splitties lately. Years ago Beetles would fetch silly money, but now I reckon a good 'un can be got for £500. My old housemate was selling her mint LHD US-import early 70's one (not sure which model ) for £800 and had no takers... ended up swapping it for a Pug 306 which blew up on me on the M1

I get the urge to own a bug every now and then, I reckon they'd be a laugh

[akku]

funnily enough Pillock said your Benz sounded like a bug as it went past my place the other weekend.

Oh, did I promice not to mention that?

;D

[Pillock]

I said it sounded aircooled, is that something to be ashamed of?

[Speedman]

samage said:

If you're not bothered about zero road tax, a 1303 model is worth looking into, mainly because they're cheaper, and drive loads better due to actually having front suspension. ;D

I can confirm this, and if you get a set of lowering springs on the struts at the front to drop it a couple of inches its even better Mine is in the garage having an MOT as we speak and is a hoot to drive