Converting cars to run on Ethanol?

[HoTWire]

So if this is the case :
www.wired.com/cars/energy/news/2008/01/ethanol23

And we can foresee a day when Ethanol is as ubiquitous as petrol and diesel (not to mention it could be cheaper cheaper) because people are pushing it.

Can we convert old cars to run on ethanol... I believe that some of the South American Beetles run on ethanol??

[bbq]

There's no reason why not. You just need to advance your timing and fit bigger jets. The rule in drag racing always used to be: advance 30deg, jets 220% bigger. Obviously that's for maximum power with no regards to economy, but it shows it is easily done. Ethanol is much more tolerant to fuel mixtures, so can be run only slightly richer than petrol. Unfortunately our wonderful government is very slow to react to E85 and would rather pay farmers subsidies to leave their land fallow as opposed to growing something on it that would reduce our dependance to oil producing nations & increase profits within our country.

A look at the current fuel stations selling E85 is quite saddening- about 15 across the entire country. If you want E85, then lobby your local Morrisons, as they're the people who have it on their forecourts.

BTW, those of you with turbocharged engines really, really want E85. 12:1 compression AND a turbo? Oh yes!

I haven't read the link, so please excuse me if I've repeated anything that's in there.

EDIT: Just read the link. Interesting stuff. But ultimately it makes far too much sense for Britain to do it- especially when you consider the waste we produce. I'm sure the government will eventually research this once every other 1st world country is in full production. They'll then import people from other parts of Europe to take care of the massive increase in employment that the industry will create, rather than get Brits off the scrounge and into work. Any money raised by the government in taxes from E85 production will then be paid to the Saudis in compensation due to their losses from the UK not longer buying as much oil from them. This will then cause a drop in revenue to the government as the revenue that would normally come from the petrol is now being given to the Arabs to compensate them so they can continue to sell petrol @ 28p a litre in their own coumtry and live in gold palaces. The british motorist will then be forced to pay a vast increase in duty to the government to make up the shortfall. Fast forward a few years and we'll all be living in mud huts and eating rats, with cars a distant memory, along with power, employment and law and order..





And breathe......................

[akku]

You can but some work is needed. Also older cars cannot run on both. ie if you set up for E85 you cannot run on unleaded. So really you'd only want to do this if everywhere sells it. The calorific value of ethanol is way less than petrol so the car effectively runs waaaay rich to get to stoich. This may mean bigger jets in some cases but carbs specifically for E85 I ave seen have different metering plates / bodies to allow for the extra fuel.

An EFI car **may** be able to be programmed to run on both/either

Ethanol appears to corode fuel lines and steel parts in carbs, fuel tanks, etc. so plenty of mods are needed to keep things groovy.

Then theres a huge arguement about "food not fuel" where some people are saying the growing all the crops needed to fuel all our cars will lead to a shortfall in food production and the poor starving millions will be even more starving.

If you look at China, theyhave already cut back on food production in agricultrue to the point that they are no longer self sufficient (one of Chairman Mao's imperitives) and they import a lot of Soy and wheat and all sorts. Farmers in China make more money growing rapeseed for biodiesel....

Crazy world.

[dollywobbler]

^^^ one reason I'm looking to run the Merc on waste oil rather than fresh. Can't really do that with ethanol though.

Think there might also be issues with rubber hoses deteriorating but then, that's been a problem with 2CVs since the switch to unleaded and isn't that alarming on a nice, simple carb system.

[akku]

theres some interesting "counter" stuff about using a certain type of maize for ethanol because once its been pulped to be made into alcohol the waste husks can be processed into cattle feed. Heard this from the pro-E85 lobby only so far so no idea if its fully sustainable. But sounds to have benefit.

[dp]

hotwire in da house:
Can we convert old cars to run on ethanol...

I ran my Shop Hack Skoda PickUp on E85 for a while but after the prize of E85 going up and the hazzle of getting it started as soon as the temp went below freezing I gave up and since the ol 1.3 MpI Eastblock gets such great milage I felt it was not worth it....

Although the conversion was pretty simple, I got an adjustable fuel pressure regulator and fitted it on the return line from the injection to the tank and cranked it up to double the stock fuel pressure (don't remeber now how much that was) that way the stock pressure regulation was voided out and when the weather was warm and not humid (the summer I ran it like that was quite rain free) it ran real nice, it felt like it gained some power and top speed with tailgate down went from 145kph to just over 150kph. You also have to change oil to a mineral based (I used Quaker State) and the fuel consumption wet up some 40%, not a big problem since most gas stations over here has E85 but frustrating when doing a 1200km roundtrip to pick up a bike, it felt like walking the dog, you had to stop at EVERY lampost (read gas station) to fill up. E85 is also verry agressive on all rubber & plastic parts in the fuel system, alot of people who has done conversions here has starting to run into clogged fuel filters, injectors etc some 2 to 3 years down the line but if all's done right a E85 car or bike would work just fine. We have a friend who owns Moto Speed a Harley tuner and they have seen real good results on stock street bikes as well as racing versions, some Hot Rodders are looking at it since a motor runns much cooler on E85 and you can slim down your radiators some 40% and I have a good friend who's building a E85 Chevy 454 for his 71 Camaro to run tis summer. In STCC (Swedish Touring Car Champ) Volvo are running their cars on E85, I can go on and on about Turbo Volvos with 700-900 bhp that run E85 and for something that you don't need to rely on taking you back and forth it can be done but for every day use unless it's a brand spanking new Saab BiFuel, I don't know.....

DP says: All in all in a warmer climate and a huge prize difference between E85 and gasoline I would run it....

[stealthstylz]

Ethanol eats rubber parts on cars so to do it properly you'll need new flexible fuel lines. It'll also eat the seals in the carbs/injectors so they'll need periodically replacing. Not sure if its exactly the same stuff, but the fuel used in drag cars also kills oil really rather quickly.

Matt

[akku]

that would be methanol

[stealthstylz]

I thought ethanol did the same thing though. It damages rubber fuel lines so I would imagine it does the same to the seals etc.

Matt

[akku]

it probably does. According to some it creeps in the back door at night and bums your wife.

Its not quite as agressive as Methanol though.

[gtd2000]

Thing is at the end of the day The Man wants his cut - if you could run your car on dishwater they still want the duty and taxes on it...

Petrol is dirt cheap to begin with.(it's only the tax that makes it expensive)..and growing crops to make fuel is somewhat ridiculous to me when you look at the overall energy expended to produce the fuel....

I'm all for using waste cooking oils as fuel because it's already served its primary function.

[Dave Dorson]

alistairk said:

it probably does. According to some it creeps in the back door at night and bums your wife.

Its not quite as agressive as Methanol though.

[SeventyNine]

any decent info on converting it.

what does morrisons sell it at?

www.morrisons.co.uk/Store-Finder/Store-services1/Petrol-stations/Locations-with-E85/

theres a few locations there

[Broke4speed]

A friend of mine who recently graduated from Mechanical Engineering did a bunch of tests on E85 when his team was building their SAE racer, which they ran on E85. He left a bunch of modern rubber fuel injection line as well as a bunch of aluminum and steel brackets in a bucket of ethanol to see what happened. A month later, everything was still fine, just like the day they put it in. Modern E85 has really come a long way, with loads of anti-corrosion additives added to the mix. Even Dodge/Chrysler and GM, who produce a TON of flex-fuel vehicles have stopped using special oils in their cars now. I've read a few service bulletins about E85 from both manus that state it is fine to use regular oils now.

That being said...there is ONE station that sells it here in Ottawa, and it never has any.

[BiAS]

So how much is it then? If fuel economy goes down is it that much cheaper?

[rustybits]

What about the possibility of using it mixed with SVO as a compression ignition fuel? Seems like it should be about right for getting the viscosity of SVO down, like the SVO/petrol mixes.

[BenzBoy]

I'm very interested in converting to Ethanol. Although I'm under no illusion that it'll save teh planet. Indonesia are busy bulldozing their rainforests to make way for palm oil crops due to a spike in demand for it as an alternative "green" fuel.

[stealthstylz]

Yep it'll never save the planet. Will make your car quicker though especially if its a turbo, and if you can map it to suit.

Matt

[BenzBoy]

stealthstylz said:

Yep it'll never save the planet. Will make your car quicker though especially if its a turbo, and if you can map it to suit.

Matt

Definitely. Like that mental (Swedish?) BMW that was posted up some time ago that ran on E85. Turbocharged, making full use of Ethanol's qualities! ;D

[topcat]

cheeqi said:

So how much is it then? If fuel economy goes down is it that much cheaper?

My local morrisons (last time i chacked) was selling E85 2p a litre cheaper. At the reported 20 to 40% economy drop that makes it more expensive to run! I tried running a Morris minor on it. I couldn't adjust the carb enough and had to mix it with petrol to get it to run at the correct mixture. It ran poorly at cold but pulled really well once warm. The ignition was advanced considerably without pinking.