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on a early mk1... door locks, steering column, steering wheel rim, all the switches and most of the dashboard would fail. And that's just the first 5 mins of the test, lol. Mk2 would pass easier though (type approval, as mentioned by ace) I agree completely with the pick the right car and the right bits methodology Instead of further changes to the mk2 tina (steering rack and a 5 speed mostly) which would remove all my remaining points I'm going to finish zetecing the mk3 instead. 5 speed fits with no mods, suspension and steering are fine as standard. Engine and box change only
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To get a standard A40 this low, you'd have to dig a hole to put it in
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bazzateer
Posted a lot
Imping along sans Vogue
Posts: 3,653
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Let's assume you have a standard car, say a Mk1 Escort 1300.
Over a period of years individual points scoring items get upgraded/changed, one at a time. Does each 'new' component now form part of that car's ID for future points scoring purposes? Or do the points relate solely to the items it left the factory with or with identical replacement components such as standard parts to replace worn out/damaged items?
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1968 Singer Chamois Sport 1972 Sunbeam Imp Sport 1976 Datsun 260Z 2+2 1998 Peugeot Boxer Pilote motorhome 2003 Rover 75 1.8 Club SE (daily) 2006 MG ZT 190+ (another daily) 2007 BMW 530d Touring M Sport (tow car)
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Let's assume you have a standard car, say a Mk1 Escort 1300. Over a period of years individual points scoring items get upgraded/changed, one at a time. Does each 'new' component now form part of that car's ID for future points scoring purposes? Or do the points relate solely to the items it left the factory with or with identical replacement components such as standard parts to replace worn out/damaged items? From previous articles we have seen, re component replacement, it appears DVLA require the original components , something we view as unrealistic as many parts are service replaceable with no identifying marks. This is something we will be discussing with the relevant departments in the future. Upgraded components do not become 'absorbed' into the vehicles identity and wouldn't count towards the 8 points required to retain identity.
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Last Edit: Feb 7, 2010 13:10:08 GMT by kapri
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bazzateer
Posted a lot
Imping along sans Vogue
Posts: 3,653
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Not sure if my last post is clear so here's an example.
Many years ago I bought a completely rotten Frogeye. I purchased a brand new body/chassis unit at great expense and re-shelled it. Later I bought a rotten Mk4 Sprite and swapped the better engine, axle and stronger gearbox and disc brakes etc into the Frogeye. New engine number was sent to DVLA and V5C came back with the updated information.
I then officially scrapped the Mk4 (cut it up myself actually and it went to the local dump).
Should the Frogeye have retained it's original ID in this case?
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1968 Singer Chamois Sport 1972 Sunbeam Imp Sport 1976 Datsun 260Z 2+2 1998 Peugeot Boxer Pilote motorhome 2003 Rover 75 1.8 Club SE (daily) 2006 MG ZT 190+ (another daily) 2007 BMW 530d Touring M Sport (tow car)
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If the bodyshell was a Heritge type approved shell ( treated as manufacturer or dealer supplied ) and the vin number transfer / change accepted by DVLA then the car as it stood was still legal and entitled to it's ID.
You then transferred components from another shell but if it retained the original front and rear suspensions ( I note axles / brakes were swapped over ) and original steering assembly it would still have 8 points and be entitled to its registration.
Had you changed the steering assembly or suspension components you would have lost these points and the answer would then be no.
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Last Edit: Feb 7, 2010 13:18:22 GMT by kapri
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Baz..because of the order you did it in I'd say yes, it should retain it's id.
The replacement shell is ok because it was a new, of original type replacement. I presume the car was inspected by dvla after this? The later engine swap etc was then done as repairs to an existing vehicle, and doesn't trigger another inspection.
if however you bought a frogeye shell and plugged it with mk4 midget running gear, took that for inspection and told them what you did, it's BIVA time.
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To get a standard A40 this low, you'd have to dig a hole to put it in
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If the bodyshell was a Heritge type approved shell ( treated as manufacturer or dealer supplied ) and the vin number transfer / change accepted by DVLA then the car as it stood was still legal and entitled to it's ID. You then transferred components from another shell but if it retained the original front and rear suspensions ( I note axles / brakes were swapped over ) and original steering assembly it would still have 8 points and be entitled to its registration. Had you changed the steering assembly or suspension components you would have lost these points and the answer would then be no. Right, but how is anyone going to ever know that he's swapped over the suspensions, gearbox or steering gear? Theres no way of knowing ther provenence of these bits, whether they're original or service replacements or bits swapped in from a donor car. So theres no way of knowing whether he's 'legally' entitled to keep his ID or not. However, no-one has been robbed, not govt office deprived of any tax revenue and no-ones safety is at risk so, theres no reason why he should NOT keep the id surely. Commonsense.
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Last Edit: Feb 7, 2010 13:27:05 GMT by xbo11ox
1974 Lancia Beta Saloon 1975 Mazda 929 Coupé 1986 Mazda 929 Wagon 1979 Mazda 929 Hardtop 1982 Fiat Argenta 2.0 iniezione elettronica 1977 Toyota Carina TA14 1989 Subaru 1800 Wagon 1982 Hyundai Pony 1200TL 2-dr 1985 Hyundai Pony 1200 GL 1986 Maserati 425 Biturbo 1992 Rover 214 SEi 5-dr 2000 Rover 45 V6 Club 1994 Peugeot 205 'Junior' Diesel 1988 Volvo 760 Turbodiesel Saloon 1992 Talbot Express Autosleeper Rambler 2003 Renault Laguna SPEARS OR REAPERS
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kee
Posted a lot
Posts: 4,990
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Thanks for the info, i have posted it on 2 fiesta forums. I thought it was important to the mk1 fiesta chaps as converting to 5 speed requires a cut out in the chassis rail. Which is a modifcation to the monocoque and would therefore mean the car needs to be inspected. Everybody who has converted so far has added bracing to keep the strength, though.
However one of the admins currently converting to rwd with a modern engine thinks he'll be fine. He has spoke to VOSA about it (his local MOT station is a vosa station) and thy said it will be fine. bearing in mind it has a different engine, gearbox and rear axle. and not to mention the modifications needed to the shell in order to fit it all in, it seems to me that it should be going for an IVA.
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If the bodyshell was a Heritge type approved shell ( treated as manufacturer or dealer supplied ) and the vin number transfer / change accepted by DVLA then the car as it stood was still legal and entitled to it's ID. You then transferred components from another shell but if it retained the original front and rear suspensions ( I note axles / brakes were swapped over ) and original steering assembly it would still have 8 points and be entitled to its registration. Had you changed the steering assembly or suspension components you would have lost these points and the answer would then be no. Right, but how is anyone going to ever know that he's swapped over the suspensions, gearbox or steering gear? Theres no way of knowing ther provenence of these bits, whether they're original or service replacements or bits swapped in from a donor car. So theres no way of knowing whether he's 'legally' entitled to keep his ID or not. However, no-one has been robbed, not govt office deprived of any tax revenue and no-ones safety is at risk so, theres no reason why he should NOT keep the id surely. Commonsense. plus (as a frogeye sprite is a 50 year old BMC car) there is no certainty that it had all its original running gear any time in the past either I call the case of Bentley "old no.1" as precedent, m'lud. www.gomog.com/articles/no1judgement.htmlfacinating read, btw... but the gist of it is that despite almost nothing (perhaps the pedal box) remains of the 1929 original, the car is in the eyes of the law (and the DVLA.. they re-issued it's original number) the same car by virtue of it's continuous history.
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To get a standard A40 this low, you'd have to dig a hole to put it in
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Good old Number 1 eh ? All I'll say is 'money talks' . Try quoting that case to DVLA as a Joe Normal and see how far it gets you.
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If the bodyshell was a Heritge type approved shell ( treated as manufacturer or dealer supplied ) and the vin number transfer / change accepted by DVLA then the car as it stood was still legal and entitled to it's ID. You then transferred components from another shell but if it retained the original front and rear suspensions ( I note axles / brakes were swapped over ) and original steering assembly it would still have 8 points and be entitled to its registration. Had you changed the steering assembly or suspension components you would have lost these points and the answer would then be no. Right, but how is anyone going to ever know that he's swapped over the suspensions, gearbox or steering gear? Theres no way of knowing ther provenence of these bits, whether they're original or service replacements or bits swapped in from a donor car. So theres no way of knowing whether he's 'legally' entitled to keep his ID or not. However, no-one has been robbed, not govt office deprived of any tax revenue and no-ones safety is at risk so, theres no reason why he should NOT keep the id surely. Commonsense. As I put before, that's the next area to be clarified. Who would now and why ? Also covered that , doesn't make it any less illegal IF it gets caught Rules broken ? Oh yes, misuse of logbook, failure to notify, if no longer entitled to old identity then fraudulent claiming of Historic tax ( hanging offence ) . However to date thooe caught ( yes , REALLY , people ARE being caught and we are speaking to them over at ACE ) then the logbook gets pulled and they get told to go for BIVA / SVA as appropriate . Misuse of logbook carries maximum penalty of ÂŁ2000 fine and /or 24 months imprisonment .
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Thanks for the info, I have posted it on 2 fiesta forums. I thought it was important to the mk1 fiesta chaps as converting to 5 speed requires a cut out in the chassis rail. Which is a modifcation to the monocoque and would therefore mean the car needs to be inspected. Everybody who has converted so far has added bracing to keep the strength, though. However one of the admins currently converting to rwd with a modern engine thinks he'll be fine. He has spoke to VOSA about it (his local MOT station is a vosa station) and thy said it will be fine. bearing in mind it has a different engine, gearbox and rear axle. and not to mention the modifications needed to the shell in order to fit it all in, it seems to me that it should be going for an IVA. VOSA and DVLA , left and right hand of DfT . Not sure what you mean about is a VOSA station ? EVERY MOT station is a VOSA station, the test they carry out is to VOSA rules and specifications. He should go for BIVA , simple as that as he's well outside the 8 points system . If he gets caught along the lie, or any subsequent owner , it will have the logbook removed and be sent fot test. It must just be me but surely even if you have no intention of going for BIVA then it just make sense to build to that standard SHOULD it ever become an issue down the line ? Then if you've already built to the required standard then why not simply use the test and have a 100% legal car ? Has the admin guy even looked at the regs on the DVLA site ( the 8 pointw system mentioned in the article on ACE ? If they need any questions answering over on the FiestA forum I'd be happy to oblige if you point me in the right direction .
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What are folk being rumbled for then in terms of misues of logbooks, failure to notify etc? Obv I don't mean name names but what are the 'authorities' picking up? I can imagine them throwing the book at obvious tax exemption pizz takes by landrover goons, you see those all the time on eBay, but are there 'honest' well-meaning folk being tripped up by this stuff?
Can you give us a few examples of folk who thought they were all OK, being told to take their motor for a BIVA?
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Last Edit: Feb 7, 2010 14:18:21 GMT by xbo11ox
1974 Lancia Beta Saloon 1975 Mazda 929 Coupé 1986 Mazda 929 Wagon 1979 Mazda 929 Hardtop 1982 Fiat Argenta 2.0 iniezione elettronica 1977 Toyota Carina TA14 1989 Subaru 1800 Wagon 1982 Hyundai Pony 1200TL 2-dr 1985 Hyundai Pony 1200 GL 1986 Maserati 425 Biturbo 1992 Rover 214 SEi 5-dr 2000 Rover 45 V6 Club 1994 Peugeot 205 'Junior' Diesel 1988 Volvo 760 Turbodiesel Saloon 1992 Talbot Express Autosleeper Rambler 2003 Renault Laguna SPEARS OR REAPERS
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kee
Posted a lot
Posts: 4,990
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Thanks for the info, I have posted it on 2 fiesta forums. I thought it was important to the mk1 fiesta chaps as converting to 5 speed requires a cut out in the chassis rail. Which is a modifcation to the monocoque and would therefore mean the car needs to be inspected. Everybody who has converted so far has added bracing to keep the strength, though. However one of the admins currently converting to rwd with a modern engine thinks he'll be fine. He has spoke to VOSA about it (his local MOT station is a vosa station) and thy said it will be fine. bearing in mind it has a different engine, gearbox and rear axle. and not to mention the modifications needed to the shell in order to fit it all in, it seems to me that it should be going for an IVA. VOSA and DVLA , left and right hand of DfT . Not sure what you mean about is a VOSA station ? EVERY MOT station is a VOSA station, the test they carry out is to VOSA rules and specifications. He should go for BIVA , simple as that as he's well outside the 8 points system . If he gets caught along the lie, or any subsequent owner , it will have the logbook removed and be sent fot test. It must just be me but surely even if you have no intention of going for BIVA then it just make sense to build to that standard SHOULD it ever become an issue down the line ? Then if you've already built to the required standard then why not simply use the test and have a 100% legal car ? Has the admin guy even looked at the regs on the DVLA site ( the 8 pointw system mentioned in the article on ACE ? If they need any questions answering over on the FiestA forum I'd be happy to oblige if you point me in the right direction . regarding the mot/vosa station, thats me being stupid ;D Makes perfect sense to me and that is what i have told them on the forums. this is the forum, you will have to sign up to post anything though. www.fiesta-mk1.co.uk/forum/index.phpthanks
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Cars stopped on the road and checked, mails from DVLA out of the blue asking to see the car due to 'discrepancies, cars being reported , changes to body style ( as in the case of the car being SVAd next week ),kit cars using incorrect logbook sto dodge SVA /BIVA , and also number plate transfers. All that is without them clamping down in any way shape or form.
It's broad brush approach, the rules are there and regardless of whether 'you' were aware that is ( currently ) no excuse. Doesn't matter if it was done on intentionally or not, it still remains an offence.
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Right, but how is anyone going to ever know that he's swapped over the suspensions, gearbox or steering gear? Theres no way of knowing ther provenence of these bits, whether they're original or service replacements or bits swapped in from a donor car. So theres no way of knowing whether he's 'legally' entitled to keep his ID or not. However, no-one has been robbed, not govt office deprived of any tax revenue and no-ones safety is at risk so, theres no reason why he should NOT keep the id surely. Commonsense. plus (as a frogeye sprite is a 50 year old BMC car) there is no certainty that it had all its original running gear any time in the past either I call the case of Bentley "old no.1" as precedent, m'lud. www.gomog.com/articles/no1judgement.htmlfacinating read, btw... but the gist of it is that despite almost nothing (perhaps the pedal box) remains of the 1929 original, the car is in the eyes of the law (and the DVLA.. they re-issued it's original number) the same car by virtue of it's continuous history. I meant to say we are dealing with a similar case at the mo but on a much less influential / financial level, not yet at the quoting Old Number 1 case yet.
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From previous articles we have seen, re component replacement, it appears DVLA require the original components , something we view as unrealistic as many parts are service replaceable with no identifying marks. This is something we will be discussing with the relevant departments in the future. It would be good if they could see sense over this one - by that standard just about every car over 20 years old would need it's ID removing due to service changes of shocks, steering rack, track control arms, springs etc. The other thing that I'd like to see clarified is the definitions of the points categories - how do you separate axles and suspension? For example, in the case of independant suspension you have the control arms, springs, shock absorbers and drive shafts. My guess would be that suspension = shocks and springs, axles = control arms and transmission includes the diff and the driveshafts.
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I think the more 'clarification' there is, the more difficult it is to enforce for every single case and by definition, the more confusing it is.
Whatever information ace gathers from the DVLA, as soon as he posts it up, it immediatley prompts 20 questions about 'Ah yes but what about in the case of such and such a car' and 19 of those 20 are good relevant questions. The more answers we have, the more questions are prompted, i.e the less we know for certain.
I think the DVLA/VOSA ought to issue an edict simply saying 'don't build deathtraps and don't take the pizz with the tax exemption' and leave it at that, its clear for everyone then. Anyone who was found to have diddled HM government or done some crummy mods that compromised safety, could be dealt with accordingly - death camps, stonings, community payback welding new sills onto Mk3 Fiestas etc.
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Last Edit: Feb 7, 2010 14:55:06 GMT by xbo11ox
1974 Lancia Beta Saloon 1975 Mazda 929 Coupé 1986 Mazda 929 Wagon 1979 Mazda 929 Hardtop 1982 Fiat Argenta 2.0 iniezione elettronica 1977 Toyota Carina TA14 1989 Subaru 1800 Wagon 1982 Hyundai Pony 1200TL 2-dr 1985 Hyundai Pony 1200 GL 1986 Maserati 425 Biturbo 1992 Rover 214 SEi 5-dr 2000 Rover 45 V6 Club 1994 Peugeot 205 'Junior' Diesel 1988 Volvo 760 Turbodiesel Saloon 1992 Talbot Express Autosleeper Rambler 2003 Renault Laguna SPEARS OR REAPERS
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As mentioned before ( twice in this thread ) we WILL be working on that in the future. The original post was merely to show progress so far as monococque / chassis carries a MANDATORY 5 points then the other stuff becomes immaterial if any mods lose those 5 points.
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kee
Posted a lot
Posts: 4,990
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Thanks for posting on fiesta forum
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