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Jan 10, 2019 16:23:08 GMT
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Hi James,
Sorry for dragging up an old thread but i still re-read this as interest and also for inspiration as i fear my roof will need something similar in the near future. Our's too is a 1930's house but of council pedigree, and our walls move. The poor house was built 'on a budget' and then messed around with over the years with services changed and new fangled accessories fitted (PVC windows with no strength). Having said that, the house has survived 80 years so not doing too bad. We had the front wall pinned with glue and rods 3 years ago and so far we have had a few small cracks reappear but nothing major like before. The majority of the ceiling cracks upstairs I reckon are wooden lintels flexing above windows.
So, i'm starting to plan pinning the back and side walls using the same method the pro's did it before seeing as you can now buy everything from the likes of Screwfix.
At the same time, I am considering doing something similar to your project with the roof. Our roof is lacking alot of internal support by todays standards, with the min parts being supported by two major bits of timber in the middle of the roof and making the only bit of triangulation. That an the remains of an old chimney are probably not helping.
So my question to you is, how is your roof now it is nearly 4 years since you did work on it? Have any small cracks reappeared as things re-settle?
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Jan 10, 2019 22:26:23 GMT
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Don't be sorry for dragging it up again. I'm happy to know that people are still reading it.
Anyway, how is the roof 4 years on? Well it's still on the top of the house which is roughly where we like to keep our roofs here in Kent. Much more I can't really tell to be honest.
So, I pre tensioned all the metal work when I installed it. (My decision to do that, nobody told me to.) But I've no way of knowing if I over tensioned it or under tensioned it.
If it was over tensioned the roof and wall were never going to move back, they'd just stop moving out.
If it was under tensioned it'd keep slipping out until the stresses evened out. Then it'd stop.
All of which is a long winded way of saying it'd probably take a few years until the stresses evened out and it stopped moving anyway.
So what of the cracks in the ceiling of the back bedroom? To be honest I didn't repair them so they are still there. But subjectively they aren't any worse.
When I pre tensioned the metal work I pulled a bend into one of the channel sections around the chimney. I know how big the bend was because I had a string along it at the time. There is a photo somewhere in this thread. So my best method of objective measurements would be to run the string out again and see if the bend is the same. Shame I put a floor over it. But I may lift the board and measure it anyway because I too am curious.
The last piece of evidence is that the back corner of the house had cracking in the external render whose pattern could correspond with the breeze blocks underneath. Now this could be due to the stresses in the building as a result of the movement in the roof. Or it could be something completely different. Who the hell knows?
Anyway I filled those cracks a couple of years ago and they haven't opened up again. I'm calling that a win whatever the fix was.
James
PS, Post some photos or drawing and stuff!
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Last Edit: Jan 10, 2019 22:27:44 GMT by Sweetpea
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Jan 10, 2019 23:50:13 GMT
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Our roof is lacking alot of internal support by todays standards, with the min parts being supported by two major bits of timber in the middle of the roof and making the only bit of triangulation. That an the remains of an old chimney are probably not helping. Our roof has no internal structure. It's just joists (the bit you stand on in the roof, or the ceiling in your bedroom) rafters (the sloped sides of the roof) and two vast purlins about halfway up the rafters. (sitting in gable ends of the walls). House is approx 170 years old This is fairly traditional construction and not necessarily bad or needs upgrading or trussing out to mimic modern roofs. Obviously if it was a modern slender king post roof truss setup and someone deleted the internals, different matter |
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Last Edit: Jan 10, 2019 23:50:59 GMT by darrenh
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Jan 11, 2019 13:05:22 GMT
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Cheers James, Darren, I hadn't really considered the roof moving until a year or two ago. I had just assumed the rear wall of the house was moving and this was causing the cracks in the upstairs ceiling just like the front of the house.
I put this down to walls not being very thick in load areas. Our kitchen is quite large and half way along it is a girder holding up the bedroom above. The girder is small compared to what i used to build my garage (but I am a man of 'over engineer if i cant measure it, plus easier to lay my hands on it theory'). This girder rests on an internal wall that has the remains of a chimney upstairs, and the other end on an external wall that has two large kitchen windows in it making it more of a post than a wall. I suspect this is what is moving along with the bit where the kitchen door is as some small cracks line up.
What made me start looking at the roof is because of some decorating i did. The upstairs ceilings in the front of the house finish square when they meet the external walls, but the ceilings in the back of upstairs curve down before meeting the external walls. Where i decorated some one of the rooms at the back, i filled and painted a section of this curved ceiling because it had cracks in along its length. Now two years on they have come back. Not massively but certainly to make me think the roof might be moving.
The roof might be moving on it's own or it might be being helped by the old chimney. Ideally i want to buy a tower and take that old chimney down but not found a tower cheap enough yet and completely bottled the ladder idea once i reached the gutters!
Plus on our house the side wall is bowing as i've found fresh cracks in the render and plaster, and we also have a side pitch on the roof over that bit.
Seems like i'm describing our house to be made of jelly rather than bricks and sand!
Perhaps i should start a thread and put pictures up for you understand better.
I was just interested if James had successfully halted further movement and its sounds like that has been achieved.
Thanks again!
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Jan 11, 2019 14:57:45 GMT
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completely bottled the ladder idea once i reached the gutters! i hear you there. i was going to repoint the chimney but felt the same just going up for a look. (baring in mind the access is ontop of a vast flat roof which itself is 8 foot up, it should be less scary than going from ground level) |
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Jan 11, 2019 15:43:14 GMT
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Cheers James, Darren, I hadn't really considered the roof moving until a year or two ago. I had just assumed the rear wall of the house was moving and this was causing the cracks in the upstairs ceiling just like the front of the house. I put this down to walls not being very thick in load areas. Our kitchen is quite large and half way along it is a girder holding up the bedroom above. The girder is small compared to what i used to build my garage (but I am a man of 'over engineer if i cant measure it, plus easier to lay my hands on it theory'). This girder rests on an internal wall that has the remains of a chimney upstairs, and the other end on an external wall that has two large kitchen windows in it making it more of a post than a wall. I suspect this is what is moving along with the bit where the kitchen door is as some small cracks line up. What made me start looking at the roof is because of some decorating i did. The upstairs ceilings in the front of the house finish square when they meet the external walls, but the ceilings in the back of upstairs curve down before meeting the external walls. Where i decorated some one of the rooms at the back, i filled and painted a section of this curved ceiling because it had cracks in along its length. Now two years on they have come back. Not massively but certainly to make me think the roof might be moving. The roof might be moving on it's own or it might be being helped by the old chimney. Ideally i want to buy a tower and take that old chimney down but not found a tower cheap enough yet and completely bottled the ladder idea once i reached the gutters! Plus on our house the side wall is bowing as i've found fresh cracks in the render and plaster, and we also have a side pitch on the roof over that bit. Seems like i'm describing our house to be made of jelly rather than bricks and sand! Perhaps i should start a thread and put pictures up for you understand better. I was just interested if James had successfully halted further movement and its sounds like that has been achieved. Thanks again! Hi, BIB, ahh there's something else for you to worry about. When you say the 'remains of a chimney upstairs' implies the bottom bit has been removed, if so what measures have been used to support the upper bit? That's an awful lot of weight to have suspended in mid air poorly supported. Sorry I just thought I would throw that in there. Colin |
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Jan 11, 2019 16:18:51 GMT
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Hi Colin, from what i remember lifting floorboards and few years ago, there is a metal beam under the old chimney holding it up. I remember lifting the floor boards for electric cables and finding remains of black embers in the void so its possible the chimney is open underneath still. The fireplace in the bedroom is just an airvent. The front of the chimney is being held up by the beam and the rear is being held up by a brick wall downstairs. If the chimney was leaning and pushing any roof, i would expect it to lean forwards, onto the beam and towards the front of the house, away from the direction i think the roof is moving. Of course it could also be going the other way but the back of the chimney is also a brick wall for the back bedroom, and i haven't seen any problems there except when i drilled too far and blew the cement plaster off!
Still you are absolutely correct, it would be my wish to get rid of the chimney altogether as this would eliminate any leaning, make the bedroom bigger, and stop the pigeons resting up there, waiting for me to finish washing the car.
I am going to start my thread now as this is quite alot of text ambushed onto James's.
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Jan 11, 2019 18:36:49 GMT
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I'm off work with a chest infection and have thoroughly enjoyed reading through this.
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Jan 11, 2019 20:20:38 GMT
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I'm off work with a chest infection and have thoroughly enjoyed reading through this. Night shift? I've done plenty of them and don't miss them. Glad you enjoyed the read! toast00, I have no objection to you continuing on this thread but if you do start another please put a link to it here. Partly so I can find it! It sounds like you've got a lot going on with the house and, to be honest, I can't get my head round it without some drawings and pictures. Two general comments. Firstly (and I see you've already worked this out) the only cracks you need to worry about are the ones that are still moving. Then the problems come. Working out why that area is unstable and how to stop it moving. Luckily for me it was obvious. Secondly, don't be afraid to get a man in who actually knows what he's talking about. Work it out for yourself first. Step back and survey the whole building properly and objectively, think it through, and then get somebody who knows. At least you'll know what to show him and have the ideas about what's moving and which way. It might cost you a bit. The structural calculations for my roof were £200 maybe £250. But that's the bit that really gives me the confidence that what I've done will actually work. You asked if I'd solved my problem. I truly don't know if the roof stopped dead or is still settling. But the calculations that chap did are how I know it will all stay up there. A third bit of advice... Listen to the advice. And then make your own decisions! Good luck! James |
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Jan 11, 2019 20:27:15 GMT
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I had the "full" survey done when I bought my house. [1903, I didn't buy it new, honest] After finding loads of problems they gave me my £800 back but it still left me with loads of bother and a load of work to do. Learned a lot over the last 20 years or so of putting everything right, and then putting some of my earlier work right later on  |
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Jan 15, 2019 15:38:12 GMT
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