1965/67 Imp pick-up (removing O/S/R wing from half-Imp)

[foxy99]

So I was back working on the Imp (or its engine) today.

Still a bit miffed about the lack of results from the hours spent online trying to go back in time but I did always say to myself I'd go back to Paisley (where I bought it) once I had something to show which is all the more reason to get my finger out.

At the risk of sounding like a deluded idiot there's really no reason this engine can't be fired up (either in or out the car) before May.

So what did I do today?

Well I've spent decades fighting rust on parts and one of the strangest/best results was with Oxalic acid. It was perhaps slow to work but seemed to leave a permanent protective coating on the parts.

So the other day I dug out some that I had, mixed up a solution and threw some bits in it. One being the airbox for the Imp. I also put the sump and the airbox-lid in my electrolysis tank.

Today, after a shift, I decided to have a look to see how the parts were coming along. The bits had only been in about 2 days so I wasn't expecting them to be ready but long story short after drying, wire-brushing and sandpapering the bits from tank were ready for paint.

Quick coat of VHT primer on them and tomorrow, perhaps, will get gloss on.

I've also started cleaning the pistons, including removing the rings and cleaning out the grooves. I never did establish the location of the 2 pistons without Tippex on them. Much trawling of diary and photo archives drew a blank. I know #1 & #3 so knowing myself I prob left 4 unmarked and that will be the one I brought home ages ago to examine. So the other unmarked one (at barn has to be #2)

The next question is 'did I make #1 at timing-end?'.

It won't actually matter that much as I'm sure I can feel a wear-ridge at the top of the bores so, one day, it'll need new pistons & rings. Or, if it's possible on an Imp - new sleeves.




sump after electrolysis



airbox lid after electrolysis




nice to see the writing emerge



sump primed



lid primed



pistons were quite dirty



now clean

[75swb]

Those have come up great!

[foxy99]

So am doing a mock-up/dry-run on the engine-assembly.

My 'new' super-rare 107 Sport head came with no studs etc in it so I set about moving them from my 'original' 533 head to the new one.

I got as far as transferring the water-temp sender when I realised it might be better to rob the bits off a head I will definitely not use. I'm starting to think it would be good to have the head that came with the car functional. Despite being 'wrong' it's more original to the car than the new one.

Anyway a long time ago I bought a very cheap early head for the project.

It seems to be in nice condition and the stubs for the water-hoses are brass instead of the later steel ones plus the studs for the manifolds & head are as-new.
I therefore put them in the new head.

The studs came out very easily with a couple of nuts locked on them. Makes a change with steel in alloy so am not complaining.

The hose-stubs are a bit tighter so I think I will get the old oven on the go to warm the head before taking these out.


new head has no fittings in it




533 head and manifolds dug out to steal parts from



some items that need transferred to bare head



here goes



water-temp sender came out fine


1st item transferred to new head



manifold studs needed


spare (128) head has all the studs I need



studs came out very easily


studs in new head


So today I will transfer the other bits over including the stubs for the water-hoses. These are supposed to be hard to remove but I have a feeling the ones on the 128 head will come out fine

[Darkspeed]

On the top rear of the head you will need the sport type outlet that has the additional banjo type fitting for the manifold heating.

[Darkspeed]

I was flicking through the factory workshop manual and found some useful information about the twin carb engine.

It confirms that the oil pump drive and driven gears are Tuftrided.

The piston bosses and CROWNs are strengthened and the gudgeon pin bore reduced - The piston grade diameters are different to the standard engine to provide larger bore clearance.

The later L4 prefix standard engines have the same piston assemblies as the twin carb.

[foxy99]

Mar 25, 2022 18:08:51 GMT Darkspeed said:

On the top rear of the head you will need the sport type outlet that has the additional banjo type fitting for the manifold heating.

Thanks Darkspeed

You've just pre-empted my next quest....

The parts list shows the standard heads had two spouts/connectors (brass on early & steel on late) on the thermostat end of the head. Part number for both was 7100643.

I removed the (brass) ones from an early (128) head I have and they are now in the Sport head.

However, as you say, this isn't correct for Sport.

The parts lists shows (where the red-dot vertical spout is in my pic) there should be a different type of spout there (7100644) which has a banjo-fitting (7100645) over it.

I assumed the blue-dot horizontal spout would also be employed but someone told me this port is blanked on the Sport heads. The parts list doesn't show this, despite showing blanking-plugs for the temp-sender next to it.

I can't find any pics of this area on a Sport head and obv' there aren't any off-the-shelf parts out there so I'll be searching for used ones now


connectors on standard head. Sport differs at red-dot location and possibly blanked-off at blue-dot



brass connectors came out head fine with a tiny bit pressure on long bar



7100643 spouts placed in Sport head. not correct

[foxy99]

Mar 26, 2022 7:54:02 GMT Darkspeed said:

I was flicking through the factory workshop manual and found some useful information about the twin carb engine.

It confirms that the oil pump drive and driven gears are Tuftrided.

The piston bosses and CROWNs are strengthened and the gudgeon pin bore reduced - The piston grade diameters are different to the standard engine to provide larger bore clearance.

The later L4 prefix standard engines have the same piston assemblies as the twin carb.

Yes I saw most of that info in the WSM but not the bit about Tutrified gears. Your manual in mb a different edition from mine.

The piston differences are so small it's hard to measure them but there is info in Tim Millington's book which advises the heavier pistons have 7101025 cast inside them.

Mine have this but iirc the info in the parts list isn't quite the same. Can't be bothered re-checking it just now.

[foxy99]

small update which is not in proper date-order. it's too late for a lengthy post so am skipping earlier update to do this (hopefully) shorter one.

So I've stripped rust off partw with various things but not done Oxalic for a long time. I've mentioned before but the few bits that I did do years ago lay around my barn for years and didn't seem to flash-rust. They also seemed to have an invisible coating that you couldn't get off with wire-brushing. hard to explain.

Anyway I did the main housing for the airbox in the Oxalic and when it comes out it's covered in a sort of whitish/yellow furry paste. When you wipe it dry or dry with heatgun there is still a sort of white powder left and it doesn't look like you can paint over it but I managed to get it almost to bright metal with scraping and wire-brushing.

You def don't get this when the parts have been in electrolysis or vinegar so it must be something to do with the Oxalic. When you use Jenolite or similar a sort of dark grey (phosphate?) coating forms iirc.

Once i'd got them as clean as I could hit them with some VHT grey primer. The two airbox bits have also had black VHT gloss now but those pics will come when engine assembly progresses


running 1/4 x 20 tap down damaged thread for water-pipe elbow


cleaning outer thread with 1/4 x 24TPI die



'new' stud slightly different to original





airbox after cleaning in Oxalic acid and wire-brushing/scraping




airbox with coat of VHT primer

[foxy99]

Well I'm somewhat amazed

A few days ago I was going on about the different spouts needed for the Sport heads. These are the connectors on the thermostat end of the head that 2o r more water-carrying hoses fit on to. This part of the engine is seldom photographed as it is hidden away in at the 'bulkhead' of the (rear) engine-bay.

I'm still not totally sure how it works, despite having had various opinions (on Facebook group).

I've been told only one of the tapped positions is used on the Sport which doesn't make full sense to me as why would they delete one of the ones employed on standard engine to replace it with a double connector in the other tapped position.

I've also been told you don't need either and someone said something about water-heating the inlet-manifold on the standard engine, despite it having no provision ofr that

All I know is that the Sport does have a water-heated inlet-manifold so I would expect that this double-connector is for that and you would still need the other (single) one for whatever that is employed for on the standard engines.

I'm pretty sure the spouts are for the heater hoses. The on on top of the head for the RH hose and you'd expect the one on side of head to be for the LH hose but it isn't as this apparently connects to bottom of radiator.

Anyway it's no big-deal and it will all become clear idc but just realised I've not got to the point of the post

So I needed the two Sport parts and a bit of scanning the WWW threw up no options and NOS parts were going to be impossible to source.

I sent a message to the guy who came up trumps with the (used) connector for oil-drain pipe to head and he said he'd have a rummage for me.

A day or less later he replied (with pics) saying he'd found four sets of used ones and could do that for £18

But he'd also found, still in bag, a NOS set and could do them for £28 posted.

Despite feeling the old ones should be pressed into service somewhere by someone I felt I had to buy the NOSers.

So they arrived yesterday and have been loosely screwed into head for pic but the thread on the head is a little bit mess-up/corroded so I'm going to run a (3/8 BSP) tap thru it before winding the thing fully home.

Interesting the bag has Chrysler on it. Without checking online I think it must be from very late 60s to early 80s as the OEM parts bags would originally have been Rootes and then, in early 80s, Talbot. Chrysler took over the Imp range in 1969 I believe so this is a 70s spare which has been on various shelves since, roughly, the same time I was born



amazing find



7100645 top and 7100644 bottom



note shoulder on banjo-fitting and hollow bolt



fitting go on top of front end of head


thread needs sorted before they can be fully fitted

[Darkspeed]

Sport set up - I just noticed on my G15 thread that these do not show up well in any of the pictures on there








As You would have thought that one on mine is an early Brass version. Will not be used as I do not use the water heating function on the manifold - and the entire thing will be removed as I do not use a heater either - This will just get a few holes drilled in the thermostat and a steam pipe connection in the top of the T'stat cover.

The two connection :-

The banjo one connects to the water heated manifold inlet - via a 90 - no connections on the manifold below - less weight - but you get the idea.





The other goes to the heater up the front of the car via the driver sill - The return from the heater back to the engine down the passenger sill. Pops out in the engine bay and (on later cars was on my '67 Coupe) connects to a 3-way bleed pot. The three connections on the little brass pot are 1. Heater return 2. Outlet from the manifold and 3. The connection to the water pump.

On a standard car - The connection next to the temp sender provides the bypass flow when the T'stat is closed - on the sport the function is done by the connection via the inlet manifold.

[foxy99]

Wicked

Am just going out so will reply/read it better when I get home.

Interesting about the brass one tho and also didn't realise you had a thread on G15. Will have a look

[foxy99]

This one goes back a few days to when I started offering the parts up for dry-run...

I'd got the final union for the oil-drain that connects from head to block and expected it to just bolt on easily but realised that even the absence of head-gasket could affect the position so dug out the original that I'd kept for no good reason.

So with this in place and the pipe joined to head I found the banjo-bolt at bottom was approaching the block a little squint. If you fitted the banjo first it was worse as the top of the pipe can't bend to get it onto the protruding union.

The pipes seem hard to come by and I didn't want to bend it quickly and crack it but with a little judicious bending it was eventually in a good enough position to bolt on without any big strain on the parts. I can't imagine fitting it in-situ would have been fun so this was a good idea.

I'm still missing some sort of dowty washer for the top-fitting but getting there gradually


pipe connected to head but bottom connection is a bit squint



banjo-bolt coming in at slight angle


bottom connection straight....


no good as top can then only go sideway. can't be pulled out to go over union




after gentle tweaking it now lines up fine

[ovimor]

The entire 'oil drain' setup has, BITD, been sorted with braided hose.

Steel + Stress + Rusty roads....

Great project happinninn here 👍

OVIMOR

[foxy99]

Mar 30, 2022 12:23:40 GMT Darkspeed said:

That's interesting with the square blanking-plug in the port where (what I call) the horizontal-spout would be, on a standard head.

As I was saying previously I didn't glean from the parts list that the Sport didn't employ a spout there and it doesn't show a number for that plug. My parts list is a 1972 one so has perhaps too much info in it but a guy on Imp Facebook group was saying there was a Sport supplement for the parts list.

This would prob be easier to follow then the tome that the 1972 book is.

I did remove a very similar (smaller) plug from the port for the oil-pressure sender on the 128 head



128 head had this plug where oil-pressure sender would be



plug removed

[foxy99]

Mar 30, 2022 12:23:40 GMT Darkspeed said:

As You would have thought that one on mine is an early Brass version. Will not be used as I do not use the water heating function on the manifold - and the entire thing will be removed as I do not use a heater either - This will just get a few holes drilled in the thermostat and a steam pipe connection in the top of the T'stat cover.

I'm always impressed by the knowledge of those who go non-standard. I just go for factory 'plug n play' option every time. Have to say I have no idea what a steam pipe is

[foxy99]

Mar 30, 2022 12:23:40 GMT Darkspeed said:

The two connection :-

The banjo one connects to the water heated manifold inlet - via a 90 - no connections on the manifold below - less weight - but you get the idea.

Cool. So the banjo connects to manifold with a pre-formed hose I guess. A guy on the Facebook page was saying it's essential to direct that connection to the far-away side of the manifold so that the hottest water reaches #1 cylinder first.

I wasn't convinced by this and moreover he did it in a home-brewed set-up for the Solex carb.

I think I'll just stick to factory layout.



The other goes to the heater up the front of the car via the driver sill - The return from the heater back to the engine down the passenger sill. Pops out in the engine bay and (on later cars was on my '67 Coupe) connects to a 3-way bleed pot. The three connections on the little brass pot are 1. Heater return 2. Outlet from the manifold and 3. The connection to the water pump.

On a standard car - The connection next to the temp sender provides the bypass flow when the T'stat is closed - on the sport the function is done by the connection via the inlet manifold.


someone showed me a good sketch of the Sport pipe layout and interestingly it does show the banjo hose going to timing end of manifold first

[Darkspeed]

It would make total sense that the pipe routes to the timing cover end of the manifold for an Imp so that the hose from the T'stat end follows a similar route to a non sport and arrives at the bleed pot at the correct angle.

The G15 connects the other way and loops across the rear of the car - no rad and no bleed valve - My excuse will be that I have seen too many G15 installations and not enough Imp ones

[ovimor]

Further to 'oil draining' in a Sport..

I bought a 998 BV 'full house' R20/wills rings/centre cap girdle motor = it had never been in a car!
Guy built it to run in his sidecar outfit... however, it canted over 'on it's back' so he had drilled a series of through holes (under the cam cradle webs) to get oil draining back to the timing chest.

It was an animal 😵 >> BUT >> first I had to fit a pilot bearing in the crank, for the gearbox. The 'chairs' run a straight drive via a big pulley 👍.

OVIMOR

[foxy99]

I'm going back a week or so here and have kinda forgotten some of the points I would've raised but am sure it'll come back to me as I make this post.

So basically I have my 533 head, which was on car when I got it in 1988, and a 128 head I bought years ago.

I know the 533 head has some similarities to the Sport head so it's ironic that whoever put it on my engine did away with the oil-drain.

When I started this engine-work I'd sort of forgotten the 128 head and was set to rob various bits from the 533 to make the Sport head useable but then realised the 128 was a better donor.

I guess that's what gave me the idea to make the 533 useable also. If I was to take the car back to Paisley with the engine running the guys there would be more interested if it was the one it had had in Paisley.

I'm not sure exactly how early the 128 head is but it does pose the question - what head would my car have had if it had never had the engine-transplant? And also, a new one to me - what did the Rootes Competition/Experimental dept do with the car's original engine. Or did it even have an engine prior to the one it left the workshops with? I don't think I'll ever get any light shone on that but someone must have known the answers to these questions and it's now too late to find out.

Anyway back to the heads....

There seems to be quite an array of senders used, and variations of them employed. I've not got my head fully round it but when I posted pics on Imp Facebook group people were saying that should be red and/or there where white ones too and the black ones were on/off type or I've joined the 2 oil-pressure senders together in case an o-ring blows

What am I on about? Well there are basically 3 ports:

• one on head at thermostat end
• one on head at timing end
• one on block directly below the one on head

I haven't looked into the one on block yet so will just talk about the ones on head.

On the 533 head the one at stat end was black where others were saying you'd get red or white and took a large spanner (13/16"). The bulb had Smiths Motor Accessories stamped on it and various numbers on the nut. I'm guessing it's old/original.

In the same port on the 128 head the sender didn't take any Imperial spanner but an 18mm or a 3/8 Whitworth fitted the considerably smaller nut part. This one was however red. I'm guessing it's a later aftermarket part or possibly very early due to Whitworth spanner. Who knows.

On the timing end the 533 head had an oil-pressure sender but the 128 head just had a plug. This begs the question 'how did the driver get any warning re the oil pressure?' but his is possibly where the port on block comes in. I don't know tbh but to add to the confusion my car had an oil-pressure or temp gauge fitted which was fed by another port on the block afaik.

The 128 head also came with a cam-cover which is handy. Same casting number inside as the 533 head which suggests a real rivet-picker could perhaps ID parts from late or early eras on various parts




128 head c/w cam etc


water-temp sender removed from 128 head (has red plastic indicator on it)



sender from 128 head is quite different from one removed from 533 head



18mm socket fitted 128 sender



but 3/8 Ww was also very snug fit



removing oil-pressure sender from 533 head



128 head had plug instead of sender here



shifter used on plug as no spanner fitted



plug removed



cam covers same same but different. 128 is dirty one


removing cam-chain guide from 128 head



guide parts moved to Sport head












So as I think it would do no harm to freshen-up the 533 head I took the valves etc out. No tools used. I just used the shade-tree method and bumped the collets out by putting a socket on extension over the valve-spring and smacking it with a hammer. Once you get the knack they jump straight out. Got a lot of cleaning to do and will lap the valves in.



manifolds removed from 533 head



I only have one thermostat housing and, like the steel spouts, it's not keen to let go



valves etc removed from 533 head for cleaning


533 head needs good clean

[foxy99]

This is possibly overkill and a diversion of valuable time but I have decided to make some sort of stand/cradle for the engine to start it up outside the car.

I know some guys (like Allen Millyard and Indian street-mechanics) can do this on the driveway with a Coke can and a battery but I'm more cautious than that.

The stand could of course incorporate something to hold battery, an ignition-switch, a throttle lever etc etc but we'll start with the basics.

This also takes me back to perhaps the darkest days of the Imps long time in exile....

It was in a council lock-up from 1988 till some time after 2006 when I started renting the barn. That's 18 years. In the very early days I rolled it onto a mattress thinking I'd sandblast and repair the underside with the help of a generator etc but that was a bit of a disaster.

Some years later (1994?) I got a basic frame built for it so it was off the mattress and there it stayed there till disaster struck one winter where the roof covering came off and water (snow) was literally cascading over it. I hadn't seen it for some time and when I discovered this was apoplectic and thought it was perhaps ruined forever.

Anyway I quickly got it moved to the barn and it's been there since. Looking back for pics of it in the lock-up on the frame I'm surprised it was only 2010 I moved it. Seems longer ago. I also met a girlfriend that year and I have no recollections of any Imp activity in the 4 years or so we were together

The rusty box-section steel frames have also been in the barn since and serve s a constant reminder of the power of rust and the endless struggle to contain it

The frames were too flimsy really to be of any use for a chassis-tilter but I figured they'd be ideal to make my engine thingy and also I'd never see them again. So, the other day, I started making something to bolt to the flywheel end.

Inspired by those videos that pop up on Facebook etc I carefully cut out triangles in the tube then folded the tube over, welded up the new joint and so on. It went fine and the tube isn't really that badly rusted. Inside it's mostly clean steel

The idea with first bit was to catch all or several of the bellhousing studs but not get in the way of the starter-motor and also ensure the sump is clear of the ground.

I was just about to drill holes in the top tube to catch the 2 top studs (which aren't in-line) when someone pointed out that the engine will need to be canted over to the same angle that it would be in the car.

That's what I should work out today.


picking up the Imp from Paisley in 1988



Imp leaving Cathcart Cr, Paisley. woman in pic was mother of guy who was selling it for owner



bringing the Imp back down to earth 2010 to move it to barn



Lonesome George arriving at barn Feb 2010



Lonesome George



cutting the frame up to make an engine cradle




making 45 degree cuts in tube




welding corners up



3 done


1st corner was sharper than 90 degrees which caused a little problem at corner #4



with help from scissors-jack last corner was fine



bellhousing upper studs aren't on same plane



frame was meant to go here but may need to think again so engine is tilted correctly