1965/67 Imp pick-up (removing O/S/R wing from half-Imp)

[ovimor]

Making a 'wonder how it should be welded up so sits right' frame....

Best be drawn out on CAD [cardboard aided design] or hardboard... That way you can hack holes for bolts and rattle stuff around and come up with a .. top/middle/bottom .. image 👍

GR8 stuff here, m8


OVIMOR

[foxy99]

Thanks ovimor

I'm thinking I'll just go with my original oblong, which was going to need feet/legs anyway to clear the sump, and tilt it by making a long leg and a short one

[Darkspeed]

The photos of the water outlets are taken with the engine sitting on a frame I just finished - details in the G15 thread. I made it full drivetrain length so I can test the entire thing before dropping it in the car - Just need to make a lower frame for it on casters so it can be moved around easily.

[foxy99]

I cleaned-up the manifolds off the standard engine this week.

The 'before' pictures make them (and the 533 head) look terrible but it was mostly oil on them. Didn't take long at all to scrape it all off the inlet then wipe it with rags ets.

The exhaust was oily and rusty so after cleaning the oil off put in in electrolysis for a couple of days and was really pleased with how it looked after the usual wire-brushing.

However in the pics it doesn't look so good. There are dirty areas in the awkward bits. I had trouble getting to them as I didn't have a suitable wire-brush. I'm not sure if this is actually rust but bottom line is it's there under the paint so God knows what effect it'll have.

The paint is Halfords VHT aluminium iirc. I'm using it on a motorcycle engine just now and it's supposed to be cured before use etc and is sort of delicate/powdery after it goes on (according to reviews). If it doesn't rub off before the engine fires up I'll be happy.

Have had a few negative comments about it on Facebook page but hey it cost nothing extra and looks good for pics


very oily parts




inlet manifold just needed oil scraped/wiped off



exhaust manifold out of electrolysis (blurry pic)



gasket face after wire-brushing




some areas not cleaned well after electrolysis



painted with VHT (underside)



painted with VHT (top)

[foxy99]

So Saturday night was back to the engine-stand. I spent a bit time cleaning muck off the 533 head but didn't get as far as lapping-in the valves like I intended. I have the pasts and stick from doing this on my Mondeo a while back and the difference in performance after it was amazing.

Anyway the revised idea was to find a good position for the bottom of the frame to be parallel to the flat part of the sump and catch as many studs as possible and keep the starter-motor area free.

I found that I could catch two studs on the bottom left corner of the frame and satisfy the other conditions but the top left corner was obscuring the thermostat housing.

I haven't managed to liberate this from the 533 head yet but I could see it wouldn't fit.

I therefore cut that corner off and welded in a new sloping piece which caught two more studs

I did the last cuts all by hand as I thought I'd make an of the angles doing it on a chop-saw but this time I used a grinder with thin blade and it was much quicker and still pretty accurate

When I offered up the starter it struck me that the next obstacle might be the flywheel contacting the frame

The stud protrude about 1 1/2" from the face of the bellhousing and the frame is 1" thick so that doesn't leave much room for nuts or a gap between the frame and casting.

So that was it for the night but I took a stud out to check size/TPI to order bolts which would take their place. I made them 3/8 UNC (16 TPI) and will but like 3" or longer bolts but will offer up the crank and flywheel before I commit.

I also want some tubing to weld onto the frame and slide over the 'studs' so that they are not just waggling about in holes in the frame.

I've bought various sizes of tube in the past and weirdly they seem to fit metric & Imperial applications very well. Like the OD listed is some random 12.7mm and when you take off the thickness of the walls it becomes exactly 3/8" ID



frame parallel with sump



but now encroaches on thermostat position



corner cut off frame



new sloping piece welded to corner



frame still clears starter

[Darkspeed]

1 of 4 that may be of interest whilst you rebuild.

[foxy99]

Apr 5, 2022 22:58:55 GMT Darkspeed said:

1 of 4 that may be of interest whilst you rebuild.

Watched the videos. Very interesting but wish he'd included the bit about getting the thermostat housing off with his BBQ

I'm still playing with mine and noticed (like the head-bolt tappings) that they are open on the head casting. I'm pretty sure it'll be corrosion on the studs that's stopping the housing from coming off so it might be possible to remove the studs or at least one of them to get some movement going. This worked for me on the carb-bowls. The stud could be wound down or up to get it going.

Also watched the Aston martin block-cleaning vides that came after the Imp ones. That was of interest due to the problems I had with my V12. Was pleased to see he used Devcon for pitting on the block. I had seen videos on YouTube with ppl using JB Weld for problems like that but wasn't sure if they were fantasists or not.

I know you can get heads welded or skimmed to d/w pitting but as Andy said in the vids this can then distort the component or upset all the other related clearances so filler is an attractive option imo

[foxy99]

Well I got basically nothing done on projects last week as I worked 6 days.

However the bits I needed to progress the stand arrived (bolts & tube)

So, today, I cut the tube into short lengths to create the gap between block and frame to allow room for the flywheel.

It went ok but am not altogether happy about what I may have done to the threads in the block. I ran a tap thru them to clean them and despite no actual force used or cutting taking place it seems like the threads are slacker now.

I've encountered this before and suspect it may be the cheapo tap & die set that's to blame. Perhaps the teeth don't have the right profile.

Anyway with the 4 existing frame-holes connected it left one more to sort out....

Funnily enough the piece I cut off the corner would have worked well, welded inside the frame, but the legs were a bit too short so I just went for a new single piece.

So that's the transmission end sorted and I now want something for the timing end. I suppose I could have legs/rails welded to the frame I just made that would run under the engine but it might still want to topple or tilt if they weren't long enough.

The problem with the timing end is it only has one connection-point. If the engine is in the car it's basically a big bolt thru the timing-case casting that goes into a rubber-bushed bracket which sits on the bodywork (crossmember).

No matter how sturdy the bracket etc are it strikes me that all the weight is taken by the relatively meagre alloy casting but with the transaxle attached perhaps the bulk of the weight is all supported up front and the rear is just for location/balance.

Whatever the physics of it are there's nothing more I can add to it so my timing end contraption will need just need to attach there.

It just so happens that the tube I used for the sleeves at the other end fits exactly in the hole (12.7mm OD tube just happens to be 1/2") so I'll work from there next visit. I'll obviously need to leave room for the pulley etc but want the tube part to be as short as possible to reduce 'leverage' strain on it



new 3/8" UNC bolts 3 1/4" long to replace original studs



12.7mm OB tube with 1.5mm wall thickness



pieces cut off tube to use as sleeves over bolts



frame fitted to block at 4 points. offcut could have worked on position #5



short perpendicular piece welded in instead




with sleeves and longer fasteners added frame now stands off block giving room for flywheel



tube used for sleeves may be good starting point for frame at other end of engine



tube is very snug fit in timing-case hole

[foxy99]

So, not as planned, I'm doing more work on my 'original' 533 head.

One of the reasons for this is that I think I'm going to have big problems finding the original hoses for the Sport head. I'm pretty sure I'll still have whatever ones were on the car when I got it, to use with the 533 head, but whatever the case there doesn't seem to be any supply of original types for either standard or Sport .

So the remit for the 533 head is basically: clean it thoroughly, lap the valves in, re-assemble it with new gaskets throughout. Don't think I'll bother getting it skimmed either.

I started lapping-in the valves on Friday night. They really were in VGC but the seats looked a little marked. I just used the fine paste for a couple of minutes and got good continuous rings on both.


One of the things I needed to do if I was using the Sport head was rob the 'stat-housing from the 533 so I did plan for this but even if I'm using the 533 head it would make sense to check/renew the 'stat so would need to get it off anyway.

Yesterday I dragged the hotplate out after spending hours trying to free the housing with conventional methods. There is quite a bit of room between the studs and the housing and after lots of penetrating-fluid and a bit prising and the help of a heat gun I could clearly wiggle the housing at one of the studs.

You'd think the movement would be enough to break the bond on the other stud but it didn't.

As mentioned before I also thought that I could perhaps remove the free stud by locking 2 nuts on it and therefore get much more swivel on the stuck one. The nuts weren't gripping it as they were too near the end so I tried grips on it and this naturally didn't work.

So I put the head on the hotplate and quickly covered it with a very slack Kingspan box to keep the heat in then went and did something else.

The box was soon smoking so I assumed everything was roasting but it was actually just a load of oil that was trapped where the oil-drain would be. Perhaps a question for another day but would there have been any downsides to running a car with a head that has the oil-drain provision but having the port blanked?

Anyway as things were hot I took the chance to quickly remove the steel hose-spouts before it cooled and one came out with just a little pressure. The other seemed reluctant so I didn't force it as they don't really need to come out. I just wanted to see if they would.

After that I worked on loosening the housing but long story short it wasn't budging.

After a few more hours of wiggling and penetrating fluid I decided to drill the stud. This normally goes pear-shaped very quickly when the component is wobbling about on the floor held with one hand and you are guessing your drill is straight in the other.


Well the hole started pretty much bang-on centre and stayed that way as I widened it out till only a thin shell was left. I drilled down about to what I thought was high enough above the head casting to leave me something to grab onto once the housing was off but also be insignificant enough to not stop the housing breaking free.

Once there was no more I could drill without cutting into the housing I tried punches etc to upset the thin shell and flooded it with fluid and lots more wiggling and levering and it still would not let go. I could actually see minute movement of the housing round the remains of the stud. It was getting near midnight by this time and I was determined to get it off so I resorted to (linear) force. Never a good idea but there was a tiny bit of the housing on the stuck-stud side that I could strike with a hammer and screwdriver and sure enough it started to move along the stud a fraction. After that it was just a case of tapping it back down again then up then more fluid then wiggle then tap. You get the idea.

So it's off and the studs should come out ok as I've scraped away the corrosion where they meet the head and left them soaking in ACF50 and will put the head back on the hotplate till it's good and hot.

Only bit I'm not happy about is I caught the top of the housing with the drill and it's enlarged the hole but it's fine at the bottom. Just caught the top of it



valve-seats prior to lapping



seats after light lapping-in



valves after lapping



makeshift oven



head on hotplate



steel spout came out of head fine after hotplate



drilling stuck stud



even with most of stud out, pool of penetrating fluid and wiggling housing would not yield




finally off



still some work to do




snug-fitting (8.5mm) drill bit shows some damage to housing at top of one stud-bore

[foxy99]

Well 2 weeks has passed (working too much) but I finally got back to the stuck studs.

Actually last weekend I got the better one out and loosened the other spout. The 1st stud came out with mole grips on it but it wasn't happening with the short one so I waited till next time I had the MIG out (to deal with some damaged bolts on Mondeo hub-knuckle) and welded a nut on it.

I let it cool and went back next day (as these nuts seem to break straight off again as soon as you apply any force) then put the head on the hotplate again while I worked on something else.

I don't know what temp things got up to or how long it was on (40 mins?) but straight away the stud shifted with a normal length open-ended spanner on it.

The spout still took a bit force to move. More then the previous one anyway and did bring a little bit allow out with it but I now have my 3/8 BSP tap (£6.60 inc P&P from Ebay) and ran that thru the threads in the head and all seems good



tap bought to run thru bad thread in 106 head




3/8 BSPT



head on hotplate


17mm nut welded to remains of stud



both spouts and studs now out



2nd spout out brought some alloy with it





running tap thru threads

[foxy99]

So I now have my fitted-in-the-8os 533 head bare and ready to assemble.

I don't have gasket set yet so bit premature as (may) need stem-seals for the inlet valves but more on that later.

I just wanted to get the valves etc re-fitted as they have been sitting in the right order on the barn floor for a while now and it's guaranteed that won't last.

Yesterday I finished lapping-in the valves and degreased everything one last time including the filthy cam-carrier.

The valves handily have their part-numbers stamped at the top of stems.

I was very easy to put the valves back in compared to my Mondeo. The tool has plenty clearance and perhaps the springs are softer but you can do each one in minutes so it won't be that big a deal if I need to do the inlets again to fit stem-seals and possibly the paper thing that sits under the cup.

After getting the valves in I put the cam-carrier back on, without shims, just to keep the tappets/buckets in the original positions. Is all this business about putting things back in original position actually worthwhile? I'm not sure I believe it but I always do it as everyone says you should. Abusive comments welcome lol

So wit the tappets back in I noticed the heights were noticeably different

There are all sorts of factors that could cause this but assuming that:

• the valves are same lengths
• the valve heads and seats haven't been excessively lapped or ground
• the spring-caps are all in same condition
• the valves collets etc are seated correctly

It means that the buckets are different thicknesses. This could be handy when shimming if you don't have the perfect selection of shims. I only have 8 that were on this head. Or it could be a bad thing if it's not permissible to swap the buckets around into different locations.

I set the valve-clearances on my old Mondeo a while back and it was a real pain but the car did run like a dream afterwards. There are no shims used on the Mondeo (1.8 Duratec) but the buckets have the varying sizes etched on them. I found that these didn't seem to be totally accurate and a 0 to something micrometer would have been handy to check them.

Would be interesting to check the Imp ones but that means another delay getting a suitable micrometer. I have a couple of bigger ones but don't think I have a small enough one to do buckets

Another strange finding is that there are oil-drillings in the tappet-bores - but only in 3 of 8.

And lastly I found the bearing-shell (lower) for the centre cam-journal seems to have melted but there's no apparent damage elsewhere. Maybe the camshaft is bent but then you'd expect damage to both halves.




very oily cam-carrier from 533 head





carrier degreased




exhaust valve 7100854



inlet valve 7100465


exhaust valve before cleaning


exhaust valve before lapping-in




inlet valve before cleaning/lapping-in




ports after cleaning



seat for ex valve (L); seat for inlet (top) and stem seal



ex valve seat over valve-guide and 'paper' seal over inlet valve-guide


followed by inlet valve seat c/w seal inside


installing valves



valves all in



melted shell on centre journal




drillings in tappet bores



only 3 bores have the drillings (yellow dots)


buckets installed, without shims, seems to be sitting at different heights


Now to the thing that I will spend the next 3 days or so trying to work out...

Off the top of my head is what I know right now but am sure this will be subject to several changes after studying parts-list, books etc and getting opinions from other Imp enthusiasts

1. the 533 head, known as L4, was standard but had Sport cam, Sport cam-carrier and an oil-drain
2. the 533 head may have had Sport inlet valves fitted but I'm not sure about this
3. if Sport inlet valves are used there are no seals and the bottom cup differs and an extra thing on top is needed
4. if Sport inlet valves are used they take double springs
5. my 533 head doesn't have a Sport cam in it and the oil-drain was not employed
6. if I utilised the oil-drain would I have to use Sport inlet valves with no seals?
7. if the heads on Sport valves are larger how could a 533 head have standard inlet valves in it?

[foxy99]

Just got some clarification on the Sport valves thing...

The 533 head was never fitted with Sport valves but for some reason they used the double springs on the inlet valves and the no stem-seal arrangement

[ovimor]

There appears to be logic in only drilling some of the tappet holes... Racers AFAIK will drill all 8.
The oil hole in the cam end might be ground about 1/4" into a 'bathtub' sort of relief = allows slightly more oil into the bucket/followers. Grinding a groove all the way around play hell with oil pressure, I think..

Keep At It 👍

OVIMOR

[Darkspeed]

Pretty sure that the 533 uses the MK2 valve sizes - Sport Cam and therefore carrier - Double valve springs throughout - Springs chosen to match the cam performance - and is fitted with the head to block drain.

As your 533 head has been down spec'd to MK2 standard - there is no need to use the head drain if it has the single springs and the stem seals fitted. However, there is no harm having stem seals and the head drain.

The reason for the buckets sat different heights will probably be due to the underside of the bucket sitting on the edge of the spring retainer - there is no need for the top of the retainers or the underside of the bucket to be even or to a tolerance as the shims sit on the top of the valve stem and the ground "seat" on the underside of the bucket.

[foxy99]

So it's been about a month since I worked on the frame but, unexpectedly, made a little progress late tonight.

I've been busy getting my Mondeo ready for MOT most of week but was using the MIG for a couple of things and had a couple of hours to spend before midnight home-time so turned to the frame.

I basically needed something to support the tube coming from the timing-chain casing. An apex perhaps

So there was a piece of the old frame that I've been cutting up which had a ready-made right angle so I drilled a strong 12mm hole in it and slid that over the tube. This gave me a triangle thing with one long leg and one short. I cut the spare bit off the T-shape frame remains and welded this to the short leg. After that I cut both of the legs at 45 degree angle about 45cm length.

I could then turn it right way up and see how it sat. The legs are a bit short but I'm adding 'feet' to the transmission end anyway so can do this on the legs also. The legs are probably far enough apart as it and making them longer would have increased this. If I'd made the apex-angle sharper it would also have brought the legs closer together but we'll see how it develops.



bits of the old frame. T-shape bit was starting point for tonight's work




T-piece turned into a triangle with no base




engine roughly how it will sit



feet need to be added at both ends

[foxy99]

I'll not go into all the whys & wherefores but got a bit further on the Imp project.

I've been raking thru big tubs stacked in my cupboard (technically a pram-store) in the flats to unearth Imp bits I've not seen for a long time. Was hoping to find stuff I'll need for the engine fire-up:

Water-pump, radiator bits, ignition-coil etc etc and have found everything I think I need apart from the water-pump/alternator alloy mounting-bracket. I'm not sure exactly how all that fits together and I do have the metal bracket that works in tandem with it but no sign of the alloy bit. I've even checked old old photos to see if there was one on the engine when I got it and there is but I just can't find it.

It must be somewhere as the chances of having lost it are very slim. A lot of the stuff in the tubs was parts I had powder-coated about 30 years ago and the alloy bit wouldn't have got that so that might explain why it's not in the tubs.

I searched a lock-up the Imp was in for about 20 years and it's not there and looking at photos of when the engine went to the barn (2018?) it wasn't on the engine so am thinking it might be in a different lock-up where the trailer the engine lived on for decades is parked. I recently found the exhaust on the trailer so will have a look there.

I could get another one I'm sure but there are at least 2 types. For some reason the Sport had a different one despite the Sport also using a Dynamo like the standard models. And just to confuse matters further my car had an alternator from day 1 I believe. More on that later perhaps but I found the rear-bracket for the alternator in the 'powder-coated' tubs and after posting a pic of on Imp Facebook page it seems they are very rare. I know very late Imps had alternators but not sure how little of the production-run this applied to.


So I've been examining the various cables etc and cleaning the very oily fan parts but my next repair will be to the radiator side-brackets. These were neatly wrapped in bubble-wrap and pretty corroded in parts. They obviously didn't get the powder-coating as they had to be repaired first and iirc I couldn't weld back then.

I don't think it'll be hard to repair them. Will post on that later.


I've been taking the parts down to the barn on my bike so some awkward parts haven't made it down yet. The alternator and water-pump are a bit heavy and the 'square' radiator cowl is light but an awkward shape to put in a bag

One thing that's puzzling me is what do the cowl and the bottom of the radiator sit on in the engine -bay. I can see there are two brackets on the top of the radiator, to hang it from the body. but there seems to be fixing-points at the bottom of the parts too.The reason I'm curious is that I'd like to incorporate them into the engine-frame I'm making



1st batch of exhumed parts to make it to barn



starter solenoid c/w cables; engine rear support-bolt; alternator/dynamo bracket



2nd batch



radiator brackets



rusted bit retained all these years


fan rather oily


fan-cowl; rubber gaiter; red thing




one of the large clips which secures gaiter to cowls. hope to find the other



this must be original belt for alternator


I also made another small step with the frame. It feels good to be upcycling the frame made many years ago (to act as a cradle for the car) into this frame and the size of the tubes is actually much more suited to this sort of task than supporting the whole car. So of the frame I've beet cutting up and using there was a bit just about right size to complete the triangle I've made for the timing end. I've got plenty of it left to make 'feet' and something for the battery and perhaps the radiator.

I put the sump back on the other night to give me an idea of where to weld the bottom bar of the triangle



sump back of for visual check



another piece of the old frame can be cut and welded in here

[jimi]

I very much doubt thats the original belt, that's what I know as a link belt, you can adjust the length by adding or removing links, normally used as a temporary (or emergency) belt.
From what I remember Imps used standard v belts.

[foxy99]

May 23, 2022 23:40:34 GMT jimi said:

I very much doubt thats the original belt, that's what I know as a link belt, you can adjust the length by adding or removing links, normally used as temporary (or emergency) belt.
From what I remember Imps used standard v belts.

Ah I see. I'd never seen one like it before so assumed (in 1988) it was just ancient and .'. the original

[jimi]

It certainly looks ancient
I used those type belts when I worked for the NCB ( late 60's to late 80's) and I've seen them offshore. You can still buy them, mostly used in industry, its a very old design originally made from leather IIRC.

[foxy99]

So I have a lot of pictures of the bits n pieces from last few days and it'll take quite a long time to comment on them all. I haven't really stuck to my original plan at all - which was to have very few words and lots of pics but hey that's the way I am.

Anyway I did find the bit I was looking for, along with another bit I was sort of concerned about.

After raking thru one of my lock-ups and finding nothing Imp related, apart from 2 (faded) tax discs from the windscreen that recently smashed, I had another look in the pram-store and there was one more tub of Imp bits and the alloy dynamo/alternator come water-pump bracket was there along with the metal yoke for the water-pump which the fan attaches to.

I'll mb never get to the bottom of the Sport/non-Sport bits fitted/not-fitted to my Imp originally but, so far, I've found it doesn't have Sport driveshafts; radiator cowl (square) or radiator and there was no T on the oil-pump/crankshaft gear.

The next item(s) for scrutiny are the brackets for the pump/generator. Looking at the parts list there are (at least) 4 types shown for the alloy one and 2 for the accompanying steel one.

The summary seems to be Sport/non-Sport (up to 1969) then 1969 with alternator then remaining years with alternator. I've no idea why the alloy part would differ from Sport to non-Sport if both types came with a dynamo.

The later brackets, for alternator-equipped cars, appear to only differ due to a captive-nut on the metal part and some corresponding difference on the alloy bit but I'm not sure of the specifics.

Strangely both my metal part and alloy part have a bolt-hole missing. Could have been damaged or perhaps a bodge to fit an alternator to brackets suited to the dynamo. I have the special (apparently rare/desirable) rear bracket for the alternator so you'd expect the front brackets to also be the right type but it seems that the alternator option wasn't available to 1969 so could be retro-fitted. The alternator has a tag on it which could mb date it. Then there is the aspect that Police Imps apparently had alternators prior to 1969 so mb my car got that option.

Anyway it's all guesswork just now and all I have to go on is the casting number on the alloy bracket. These are not the same as the part number but, as with the various cylinder-heads, an expert might know what casting numbers were on what brackets.

I can also look at my wiring to see if the connector for the alternator looks like a homemade bodge or not.

Going back to the tax discs I mentioned.... They are very faded and are valid for 1986 and 1987 and I think I can make out an M reg-suffix on them. When I bought it there were a bunch of spares from another Imp in the load area. I remember a set of gold doors which were the later type. I'd never imagined my car was still on road in 86/87 so I'm pretty sure the recently-smashed windscreen was from this spares batch and it's also possible that the alternator was taken from a late car - like M-reg.


I think I really need to get down to Paisley/Johnstone very soon and start quizzing anyone connected with the car before it's too late.



generator bracket and water-pump yoke unearthed



casting number on alloy bracket 7010044 1/2



original alternator ?



tag on alternator may be useful for dating



(rear) mounting bracket for alternator