Tubes In Tubeless Tyres

[willg]

Evening RR,

I bought a bargain set of 14" banded steels for my K11 micra a few weeks back. Got round to putting tyres on them yesterday. All going well till one of the rims has cracked . I'm going to try to weld it, but I'm not 100% sure it will sort it (already been patched). So I'm wondering, can I put a tube in it and run that?

Cheers,
Will

[alecf]

I race with tubes in tubeless tyres no issues at all.
I've split rims whilst racing but not blown a tyre. Only found it when we got back to the pits

[VW]

It may just be me but

cracked banded steel thats been patched before?

No way id run that wheel!

[willg]

Feb 24, 2016 18:16:01 GMT alecf said:

I race with tubes in tubeless tyres no issues at all.
I've split rims whilst racing but not blown a tyre. Only found it when we got back to the pits

Just what I wanted to hear! Thanks

Feb 24, 2016 18:17:45 GMT VW said:

It may just be me but

cracked banded steel thats been patched before?

No way id run that wheel!

It's not as bad as it sounds! There's 1 area that's had a crack and it's been welded over. But there's this other crack, about 3/4" long, that showed it was leaking air.

[VW]

That still sounds fu***ng horrendous to me.

If you were to have it x rayed and crack tested would you expect it to pass?

I cant see any way how what you describe could even be remotely considered usable.

[VW]

The tube issue is the least of your worries.

start a thread 'banded wheel cracked, welded it, cracked again. Would you trust it' and see what people say.

[Deleted]

tubed tyres are smooth inside, unlike tubeless.

[waveman1500]

With multiple cracks in different areas, it's pretty obvious that the weld is not sound. At a minimum, you need to grind out the cracks and weld them up properly. If you have a pinhole air leak after that then use seam sealer on the weld. Based on the wording in your OP, you are not confident in your own welding ability, so please get a competent welder to repair it, or at least inspect your work.

I would also be checking why it's cracking, is it running straight and true? There is probably a major issue with the wheel that is causing it to crack, the entire weld might have inadequate penetration. Factory steel wheels last for 50 plus years without cracking, so don't accept any less with a modified wheel.

[fordperv]

Not being funny but think what the failure of this rim will do to you and others whilst out on the road, get it sorted properly

[willg]

I havent explained this aswell as I could have. Also I ahve no history of these wheels apart from the were on an MX5. The guy I bought them off never used them as they didnt fit his clio.

I assume the rim has cracked, as there is evidence of welding on the inside. There is this crack just on the edge of the inside welding, please see the photos. The crack has been drilled both ends and notched. The wheel:



The crack, and possible welding?



Inside welding

[VW]

So that has cracked right next to the band weld and then been re welded?

Metal next to a weld can be weakened. Seems pretty obvious to me that something has gone a bit wrong here. Whats to say its not going to crack near that weld somewhere else.

IMO that wheel is scrap. I see too options. Get it tested, or, get another made.

Ive nothing agaisnt banded steels but I wouldnt run that.

As for why its cracked next to the weld, thats one for the welders to answer. Too much heat? Cooled too quick/slow? I dunno.

[VW]

Ive been reading alot on australian forums, over that way, any suspension or steering parts etc that have been cut, heated or welded have to be xrayed and certified before they can be used.

I thought that was exessive.

Now I'm thinking it may be a good idea!

[timmy201]

Feb 24, 2016 20:28:49 GMT @oldspice said:

tubed tyres are smooth inside, unlike tubeless.

I wholeheartedly agree here. I have a set of wider steel wheels off a mini without a safety bead, and the tyre shop wouldn't install them without tubes. They went flat at least 5 times on different occasions, and every time it was because the rough inside of the tyre had worn through the inner tube. Eventually they installed them tubeless and I had no problems after that.

[HoTWire]

Feb 24, 2016 20:28:49 GMT @oldspice said:

tubed tyres are smooth inside, unlike tubeless.

Interestingly Avon tyres suggest using tubes in all types of tyres if you are running multi piece wheels : www.avonmotorsport.com/resource-centre/tube-fitment

I ran tubes when I ran stretched tyres, something I picked up from how the Japanese run their wheels/tyre combo, higher profile with inner tubes. Never had a problem with them. The only thing I was told was not to get them too hot for long periods (like doing 100+ on motorway), seeing as stretch was for cruising there was no fear of that.

[LowStandards]

The welding is where a crack has been repaired as you mention

Get the new crack welded and ground - enjoy

[Seth]

Feb 25, 2016 11:24:57 GMT HoTWire said:

Feb 24, 2016 20:28:49 GMT @oldspice said:

tubed tyres are smooth inside, unlike tubeless.

Interestingly Avon tyres suggest using tubes in all types of tyres if you are running multi piece wheels : www.avonmotorsport.com/resource-centre/tube-fitment.

Are you referring to the paragraph at the bottom of that link?

Wire wheels, multi-piece wheels and some single piece wheels designed for tube type applications CANNOT be used as tubeless fitments and the use of a tube (regardless of whether the tyre is “tube type” or “tubeless”) is ESSENTIAL FOR SAFETY. Always use tubes in such fitments.

I think that is probably talking about rims that don't have the 'safety' rib around the area the tyre sits as per (very) old fashioned wheels. That's the rib that helps keep the tyre in place on the rim. So later multi piece wheels and indeed some wires can be used tubeless as the rims are designed for it.

MWS where I went a couple of weeks ago make new wires in both types of rim. Wire wheels can/do have the spokes sealed to allow tubeless running if the rims are the right sort.  They had no problems with fitting tubes into my new radials.

On the other subject, not sure I'd be happy about the use of welded/cracked/welded again/cracked again-again/welded up again-again wheels. At the least it would seem quite likely that they will crack for a third time and result in loss of inflation - hope it doesn't happen suddenly when you're doing 70 along a busy motorway or on a twisty country lane with a bus full of nuns holding kittens (or maybe just a school bus) coming the other way.

[VW]

Its not rocket science is it?
wheels has cracked TWICE.
Scrap that wheel!
Once, and then repaired, maybe I could deal with, maybe.
But when the same wheel (and a modified wheel at that) cracks for a second time?
Surely its obvious to everyone that wheel is suspect.

[Rich]

Feb 25, 2016 20:22:28 GMT VW said:

Its not rocket science is it?
wheels has cracked TWICE.
Scrap that wheel!
Once, and then repaired, maybe I could deal with, maybe.
But when the same wheel (and a modified wheel at that) cracks for a second time?
Surely its obvious to everyone that wheel is suspect.

I can't believe I'm getting involved in this, but.. So. if your car rusts next to a place already repaired for rust, you shouldn't repair it and you should scrap it?

[VW]

Are you seriously suggesting thats the same situation?
Slowly developing rust hole compared with potential instant failure of a wheel?

[Dez]

I'd always be wary of any banded steel that's had the welds ground down. Anything more than a de-nib and despatter is too much and makes the quality of the actual weld questionable. I bought a bad set once, it's why I then figured out how to make my own. To me with where that crack is it looks more like the actual thickness of the original wheel material has been ground down too thin which is why it's cracking as its no near the weld. For the sake of less than £50 to get a new one made I wouldn't bother using it. Begs the question are the other ones as bad though....