Hillman imp + Honda flat 6. Musical engine swap game..

[yoeddynz]

So a fella on another forum has pointed out an issue I had not thought about and has put me in a mild pickle. I have a couple of solutions, one of which could improve other things at the same time.

Lets see if anyone can guess my error. I'll give you all a clue.

Starter motor.

[nze12]

Jul 20, 2021 21:10:04 GMT yoeddynz said:

So a fella on another forum has pointed out an issue I had not thought about and has put me in a mild pickle. I have a couple of solutions, one of which could improve other things at the same time.

Lets see if anyone can guess my error. I'll give you all a clue.

Starter motor.

Rotational direction?

[yoeddynz]

Yep that's it.

If I mount the Subaru starter in its stock position I'll be turning the motor the wrong way.

Didn't even think about that. Whoops.

However I have a couple of options. Either use a Honda starter from a counter clockwise civic/accord etc. These rotate opposite to most starters. But I need to check the pinion tooth pitch. From what I can see via rock auto pics they are the same tooth count , 9, and look about the same diameter. I am guessing that most Japanese cars share the same pitch teeth on ring gears?

Or I can mount one of my Subaru starters from the front, over the engine. I have just checked and there's loads of room and will be easy to mount. It would also look more symmetrical and the Subaru starter was going to be pretty close to the parcel shelf if mounted above the box as originally planned.

However if I do this I'll need to turn the ring gear around. Probably add some welds to stop it potentially getting nudged off because the flywheel retaining lip I had machined will now be on the wrong side.

Nothing too drastic or insurmountable in the grand scheme of this project and I'm lucky someone spotted it at this point!

[nze12]

Jul 21, 2021 1:36:49 GMT yoeddynz said:

Yep that's it.

If I mount the Subaru starter in its stock position I'll be turning the motor the wrong way.

Didn't even think about that. Whoops.

However I have a couple of options. Either use a Honda starter from a counter clockwise civic/accord etc. These rotate opposite to most starters. But I need to check the pinion tooth pitch. From what I can see via rock auto pics they are the same tooth count , 9, and look about the same diameter. I am guessing that most Japanese cars share the same pitch teeth on ring gears?

Or I can mount one of my Subaru starters from the front, over the engine. I have just checked and there's loads of room and will be easy to mount. It would also look more symmetrical and the Subaru starter was going to be pretty close to the parcel shelf if mounted above the box as originally planned.

However if I do this I'll need to turn the ring gear around. Probably add some welds to stop it potentially getting nudged off because the flywheel retaining lip I had machined will now be on the wrong side.

Nothing too drastic or insurmountable in the grand scheme of this project and I'm lucky someone spotted it at this point!

Found this too... link

This option sounds elegant though.. "I can mount one of my Subaru starters from the front, over the engine."

[yoeddynz]

electrically it can be relatively easy to change the direction of the starter however you will still have a clutched pinion that wont work unless changed over too.

I've a friend who's a rep at our local Repco and he has sent through details of various Honda starters. Luckily two are almost the same as my subaru unit- just a smaller flange on the honda items which I can work with.

[metalshapes]

I'd go for the reverse rotation starter in the original position ( over the transmission )

I've done some experiments on one of my racing Fiats ( also has the engine behind the axle, like a Imp )

Disconnect the Alt. to reduce drag,

No difference.

Gut the Alt. ( realistically not a big weight savings, but its mounted next to the #1 piston, so its all the way on the back of the car ),

Several 10s improvement on about a 1 minute lap.

So a significant, measurable difference.


I know yours is a street car, but "free" extra handling is always good...

[ditchdigger]

which direction do you need the starter to spin? Clockwise? Counter? What tooth count are you looking for on the gear?

I went through this with my Fiat 850 trying to avoid the old Marelli starter. I found a few databases that listed rotation direction and gears. That was a long time ago.

link to Denso starters and rotations

[kevins]

I've probably got this wrong but given the saburu one comes in from the rear of the flywheel wouldn't almost any starter designed to go on the engine side (mx5 looks similar but there must be hundreds of them) turn the direction you need?

[yoeddynz]

Jul 21, 2021 11:58:30 GMT metalshapes said:

I'd go for the reverse rotation starter in the original position ( over the transmission


I know yours is a street car, but "free" extra handling is always good...

Yes definitely true this. I'm also leaning towards the orginal position because its more hidden from view and I really want to aim for a flat six looking as clean as possible- just a (tiny, lightweight) alternator and 3 itbs on each side, K&N filter above. Maximum engine doort!

Jul 21, 2021 13:58:48 GMT ditchdigger said:

which direction do you need the starter to spin? Clockwise? Counter? What tooth count are you looking for on the gear?

I went through this with my Fiat 850 trying to avoid the old Marelli starter. I found a few databases that listed rotation direction and gears. That was a long time ago.

link to Denso starters and rotations

Very handy link. Cheers!

Jul 21, 2021 14:24:52 GMT kevins said:

I've probably got this wrong but given the saburu one comes in from the rear of the flywheel wouldn't almost any starter designed to go on the engine side (mx5 looks similar but there must be hundreds of them) turn the direction you need?

You are indeed correct. You win yet another piece of my finest swarf for that.

How simple and obvious yet I missed that fact. Opens up a whole load of various starters I can look at. I might have to pop to the wreckers and rummage through their shelves :-) I do have a friend who's into Hondas and he might have a suitable starter for me. I'll be doing an update soon because I have worked out an even simpler way to deal with my oil pump chain tensions.

[metroman]

Micra K11 starters may be worth trying as they come on both flavours, engine side on dizzy engine manuals and gearbox side on autos and coilpacks engines. They are pretty small and light.

[yoeddynz]

Ooooooohhhhh- I'll soon have a spare k11 auto starter motor too. I'll have a look at it!

Although thinking about it, considering we've just removed the engines out of two of our Marches is it possible that UK k11s are different because the starter is on the gearbox side on our manual equipped 1.3 Marches. I'll look at the auto tomorrow.

[metroman]

Gearbox side is normal on UK manual 1.3s too. The starter is engine side on autos and later coilpack cars (1.0 and 1.4) to clear the torque converter / crank position ring gears.

[remmoc]

Depends if the motors a magnet or field coil one but moving them through 90˚ will make it run tother way , field coils would be easy to move , magnets less so as they are bonded on

[yoeddynz]

Jul 22, 2021 11:29:38 GMT metroman said:

Gearbox side is normal on UK manual 1.3s too. The starter is engine side on autos and later coilpack cars (1.0 and 1.4) to clear the torque converter / crank position ring gears.

Yep cool- I think I was confused because it looks like you mixed them up in your first post.

I looked at a few K11 auto starters online. I presume they are the same as the manual items but maybe with the flange mounted at a different angle due to it being mounted from the engine side.

It looks like they are an 8 tooth pinion- to gear it down perhaps because they are quite a small starter. They could work although possibly a bit gutless to turn over a six cylinder engine so I'll chase up some honda/other engine side mount items first in the hope I find one close to the flange size I need.

remmoc - cheers Dave. But even if I do that I'd have a starter with a clutched pinion that doesn't work in its new rotation direction. I'll keep it simple and look for a suitable engine side mounted starter to suit

[kevins]

Remember if you get a Honda engine side one it will go the wrong way for your gearbox mount as well!

[yoeddynz]

That would be the Imp goldwing swap equivalent of a double negative?

I picked up a Honda starter from the wreckers today. Looks like I can make it work

[mdh]

Any updates on the house/land project Downunderdude?

[yoeddynz]

Yes - I should pop up some updates on the mezz house soon

[kilroy]

Just by-the-by.
Was out riding with the Blenheim Classic M/C group and we stopped at Pelorus for a cuppa.
What should roll in but a tidy blue Imp.!
Amongst other machinery.
Didn't see where the crew had vanished to, but at last got a look at the wee beastie.
Very tidy it is too, but I could not get over the fact that the whole car is about as big as a coffee table.
Power-to-weight on steroids.
Nice update and keen to watch it develop.
Cheers to you both.

[mdh]

Jul 31, 2021 14:24:25 GMT mdh said:

Any updates on the house/land project Downunderdude?

Linky?