1995 Ginetta G27 4.5 V8

[Darkspeed]

So what do you do when its freezing cold outside and the forecast is for more freezing weather and snow. You fill your time drinking tea and reading through posts on Retro Rides well you do if you are me and the garage is a freezing cold drafty lean to on the side of the house and not a heated restoration workshop. And once you have caught up with things and there is nothing much planned for the weekend due to the - did I mention the freezing cold temperatures and Arctic gales - complete lack of desire to get frost bite.

As the Strato's thread is well populated with things Strato's and Ginetta G15 G21 and the like I figured that rather than muddle it further with other car projects I would start another. I present here my Ginetta G27 V8.

Really quick bit on the back story - Had a Westfield - very nice one - narrow body low line with a 1.8 Zetec on Weber Alpha and 45's with a 4.5 Diff - a screamer and great fun. Dreadful couple of summers as soon as I took the screen off so did not get much use. Sold it to some chap in Germany and went on the lookout for something different and bought a Ginetta G31 which introduced me to the rest of the Ginetta range the G4 and the subsequent G27 and G20 developments - yes G20 came well after the G27!

Browsing pistonheads one evening looking for Dare G4's - I had just missed out on one a few weeks previous - I spot a G27 V8 - hideous looking paint scheme but it had a V8 - price was too high though but I keep watching and over the next few weeks it drops in price steadily. It also had the added benefit of being only 20 miles away. When the price got to where I figured it should be I pounced - view - deposit - cash - collect - mine.

That was - 22-11-2008

As it was running like a complete dog, my mate followed me back home and said his eye's were watering from the fumes the thing was kicking out - it was put away for the winter and I spent the occasional weekend sorting out the ignition system to get it running a little better and generally looking over it and reading through the 1.5" thick pile of receipts and history.

What is a Ginetta G27? It's a kit car that was derived from a racing car built by Ginetta and is development of the original G4 race and kit car of the 60's. There are 4 series of the G27 - Series one and two which have separate bodwork sections for the rear mid and front sections of the car and series 3 and 4 which have a single piece for mid and rear.

Let's have a magazine cover - same as for the Strato's. From one of the first outings with the car - a last minute request from PPC to get some Rover V8's together for a group test - Still running a bit rough. Yep that's it, the odd looking thing on the right.

[mercedeslimos]

Haven’t read PPC in ages. I was 15 when I bought the first issue and was always dead chuffed with it - maybe lack if in depth technical stuff for me?

[Darkspeed]

The PPC article was basically PPC taking the opportunity to be derisive about the RV8 and how poorly it performs and how much better a certain small block Ford in a Capri was in comparison. The actual facts were that my stock valved and Holley carbed 4.0l RV8 with a clogged air filter and clockwork timing was kicking out a greater BHP/litre than the 5.0l SBF with Edelbrock heads 50mm throttles bodies and an Emerald ECU! Okay so neither were setting the word alight with headline figures but it was just perpetuating the myth that Rover V8's are as the cover said - curse word.

So I had bought a V8 G27 which had some very dubious previous owner modifications - I am sure many will notice a theme here with the cars I seem to buy -

Here we are up at the Ponderosa with an indication of the paint work that the car came with. It is a surprisingly small car which can be seen by the size comparison with a Westfield.







I have already removed at this point a Large Scooby bonnet intake that had been placed on the front of the bonnet! - where the alloy oval section and duct tape is ! and a large alloy tea tray affair just below the front rad apperture. You can just make out hole in the above picture. This was one of the first bits of glassfibre repair I undertook.



There was also a very poor fixed hood scoop from a G33 grafted onto the bonnet to clear the air filter which was removed along with the Escort Cosworth style vents.



After doing a bit of research on the car it became clear that this was no ordinary G27 which had both good and bad things going for it. The odd thing about this car is that the Series 2 had been out of production for some time when this car was made and rather than the usual Ford Sierra stub axles up the front this car had G33 parts on it.




The Ginetta cast alloy upright is a rather strange thing with verry little SAI/KPI which results in large scrub and on my car fitted with a steering arm that provided 0 Ackerman. Wind on a little lock and you cannot move the car. In the shot above you can see the top rose joint.

This is how much of that rose joint screws into the upper wishbone.





The car was not slow by any stretch - 232BHP when running poorly and 255ftlb of torque and weighing less than 750kg it was pretty rapid - 1st gear was utterly pointless as some clown had fitted the car with an open 3.9 Diff so the LT77 was effectively a 4 speed but all you really needed was 5th once it was rolling and it would head at the horizon with a relentless shove in back until it bounced off the rev limter. People who were chatter boxes when they got in the car soon lost the power of speach when the accellerator was buried and that's torque.

So it was powerful, bloody quick, handled lethally! and looked like a supermodel after a drink and drugs binge with an Avon rep.

[Darkspeed]

After digging through the histor of the car and speaking with other members of the owners club it turns out this was one of three cars built specifically to take the RV8 based on a special order for one for Japan and the factory decided to mop up some G33 parts that were on the shelf - the other two went oversea's and this one was sold to a company in Newark that built Kit cars - And this car was a feature of there abilities at Newark kit car show and was built up with a TVR 3.5L V8 and built up to a pretty high standard. It changed hands a few times because owners found that they either could not fit into the car, or could not drive it safely. These are not cars for the larger frame and anything taller that 6 foot is near impossible and anything heavier than 14 stone is uncomfortable, plus any feet larger than a size 9 and you will be pressing all the pedals at once - I may come as no surprise that the main designer of Ginetta cars was around 5 foot 5!

Have one of my favourite pictures of a G4 - the G27's genitor.



The slammed G4 !

The G27 is 2" wider and 4" longer than the G4 - however the cockpit width is the same and only 2" longer

Something of the period.



And on the rollers at the PPC day - which was also a bloody cold day.




After driving it around to various events during 2009 I decided that the car was far to dangerous to drive quickly as the handling was appalling it would not stop even if you did manage to not press the accellerator and the brake at the same time. The huge a silly wheels and tyres - 17x8 on the back with 235-35-17 IIRC had so much negative camber on them to prevent being sliced by the wheel arch - even after the arch had be nibbled away by a PO and his trained rat - that hard accelleration just left a 3" wide black line and not much in the way of forward progress. Anything other than a bone dry surface and you thought the clutch had taken a holiday. Brake bias had been set up to ensure that every press meant an attempt for the back to try and overtake the front and when you did get it to grip you could feel the chassis really struggling with the torque.

[ChasR]

That sounds like quite a recipe for winning but also one for dying! It will be interesting to see where you go with it .

[Darkspeed]

This is the plot from the day with a very restrictive air filter that was making it run very rich - The carb was fitted with a drop base air cleaner housing and a 2" deep filter which had the lid sitting on top of the choke horns on the Holley, not great for air flow.

The specification made for a very flat torque curve.



The heads were stock valves with just minimal porting behind the valve head - if some good heads had been fitted the rest of the engine was built to make some good power and the car would have been lethal.

[stewb]

Looked to be fairly healthy bearing in mind the shortcomings. Didn't the V8 Ginettas use fairly restrictive LR sourced exhaust manifolds too? What spec Holley is it? I've gone from a 390 vac sec on a P5b V8 to Emerald driven efi on a 4.6 with a bit more compression, tvr885 cam & minor port cleanup...and top hat liners...yet to get it on the dyno but should be a bit more lively, hopefully 250+bhp & 280lbsft.

I remember talking to Dave Walker about the WH V8 Capri.....he was less than complementary about the whole thing....well that was after he stopped ranting about the WH ur quattro with a knackered engine....I distinctly got the feeling that he had little time for the general shenanigans which surrounded it all.

Obviously I could have completely misread the situation.....

I digress....do really like the G27 derivatives...good looking cars.

Stew.

[jimspolicev8sd1]

Just never believe auto journalists. Most of them are on the take and only write what is fashionable at the time or favourable to who ever has the largest marketing budget.

Just buy loads of cars, drive them, then keep the ones you like!

[Darkspeed]

The G33's did use a stock 3.9 cast manifolds

The Holley on that original 3.9 engine was a 390 Vac sec which was modified with a secondary metering block sitting on a Wildcat spyder manifold.

That engine was a DJE engine

Blueprinted and balanced 3.9 + 20 thou
DJE 220 Cam
DJE stage 1 heads
Fed mogal rockers
Lightweight fly
ARP head
Original dizzy was an Opus set up which was sporadic at best - I swapped for a recurved later dizzy with Luminition

The new engine is

Small journal 4441cc - known as the 4.5 - standard (3.9) bore
Small journal cross bolted block
4.5 Crank - Balanced
Omega JED pistons - Matched
Late rods lightened balanced shot peened
ARP throughout
M248 3 degree advanced
BRE big valve heads - Duplex springs, steel caps
11.5 static
Group A rockers
IDF manifolds - ported and matched
45 IDF type TB's
Lightweight fly and AP clutch
MS semi sequential

Exhausts on this one are better for flow but could be better.



New engine looks like this



Hoping to be close to 300 BHP with a very free revving nature

[07lilredwagon]

Please leave the trumpets and at least show them off through the hood somehow!

JP

[georgeb]

Huh? Thought you'd sneak this one past me with a new thread, eh?

Good job I've got my V8 and pretty Ginetta alert turned on, isn't it?

Love it and bookmarked.

[steveg]

What was the reason behind the front suspension/steering design ? Seems an odd choice of parts considering there are a few off the shelf components that look like they might work as well or better.

[Darkspeed]

Mar 4, 2018 5:10:24 GMT georgeb said:

Huh? Thought you'd sneak this one past me with a new thread, eh?

Good job I've got my V8 and pretty Ginetta alert turned on, isn't it?

Love it and bookmarked.

"All aboard" - "Lets get ready to rumble" - etc. etc. Good to have you along for the ride.


07lilredwagon the trumpets will be polished, however for the sake of engine longevity and protection they will unfortunately out of sight in a filter.

[bstardchild]

Mar 4, 2018 5:10:24 GMT georgeb said:

Huh? Thought you'd sneak this one past me with a new thread, eh?

Good job I've got my V8 and pretty Ginetta alert turned on, isn't it?

Love it and bookmarked.

So you thought you'd keep this thread all to yourself and not share it.....

Good job I've got my georgeb post tracking device set up to alert me when you post in a new thread

Also now bookmarked

[v8]

Mar 3, 2018 22:28:37 GMT Darkspeed said:

The new engine is

Small journal 4441cc - known as the 4.5 - standard (3.9) bore
Small journal cross bolted block
4.5 Crank - Balanced
Omega JED pistons - Matched
Late rods lightened balanced shot peened
ARP throughout
M248 3 degree advanced
BRE big valve heads - Duplex springs, steel caps
11.5 static
Group A rockers
IDF manifolds - ported and matched
45 IDF type TB's
Lightweight fly and AP clutch
MS semi sequential

Exhausts on this one are better for flow but could be better.

Hoping to be close to 300 BHP with a very free revving nature

You should easily break 300bhp with that set up

Years back I managed 333 at the flywheel on a 4.5 with Kent M238 cam, big valve heads and a 450 mechanical secondary Holley on a Harcourt intake.

[Darkspeed]

Mar 4, 2018 10:18:25 GMT v8 said:

You should easily break 300bhp with that set up

Years back I managed 333 at the flywheel on a 4.5 with Kent M238 cam, big valve heads and a 450 mechanical secondary Holley on a Harcourt intake.

The 4.5 is quite a sweet engine and every one that my mate has built has always made good figures, as a package he rates them above any other capacity. Over 300BHP would be really good, and if 330BHP was on the cards @ a predicted 650kg, thats a magic number - 500BHP/tonne with torque to match and built to rev.

Mar 4, 2018 9:14:29 GMT steveg said:

What was the reason behind the front suspension/steering design ? Seems an odd choice of parts considering there are a few off the shelf components that look like they might work as well or better.

This car was put together at a time when Ginetta were having some dificulties financially and I suspect that having G33 parts laying around to hand was the main reason. There are some good things about these uprights. You can build whatever steering arm you like so you are not stuck with an off the shelf factory saloon geometry for what is essentially a racing car. The more road based built cars used Sierra lumps of iron. Aspects of the car appear to have been rush built to get the car out and the cash, plus the Ginetta design engineer had left the building. But as a foundation they are great items.

[Darkspeed]

The G27 was built as a racing car and it is a development of the G4 series 4 which was basically the updated and revised next generation G4 - In the mid 80's Ginetta went back to the drawing board to remove the compromises of the G4/4 and produce a more Race/Road G4 so it was designed from the off with racing as the focus and the chassis was improved from The G4/4 and built to accept the Jaguar IRS. As the car was a good few stages in development along from the original G4 is was given the next avaialable designation - G27. The cars were very successful on the track especially with Mark Walklett and his Mazda Rotary powered development - sucsess in the kit cars series eventaully led to a full single make series for the cars - which started the more race focus of the company to The G20's - Juniors - G40's G50's and now with the Le Mans LMP1 program.

So back to my bitsa.

I had my trusty G31 to run about in so I decided that the G27 had to come off the road - it was fun in a straight line but was hard work to keep it that way, and the real essence of a Ginetta is the ability to go round a corner like nothing else.

Too many years ago now I broke out the tool kit and turned the car into this. Take away the roll cage fabrication as that was a later addition and that is all you have bar a glassfibre tub that sits inside it to contain all that torque - the original development was just for 4 pot Fords.

[Darkspeed]

I am not convinced that the chassis could be called a space frame - a frame with lots of space, now that I will agree on but a space frame - No its a platform/perimeter/ladder frame - The only saving grace is thats far better than the G33 chassis which is much the same just wider and longer so even more wibbly.

Those that know me we confirm I have a thing for triangles, tubes and things being lighter than they were originally. So, with that in mind the first thing to do was to sort out the ugly on this chassis. You may note the chassis above actually has two sets of engine mounts! Yep, the chassis was just a stock standard Pinto IRS chassis with some mounts for the Rover welded on. However as they had raided the G33 parts bin all of the wishbones are bespoke. Although, as we have already discovered, that is not necessarily a good thing.

I am really not a great fan of sheet metal reinforcing and in the case of the G27 it all had to go - Sheet metal does a far better job when it's rolled up into tubes and used to triangulate. Lets have a few snaps of the dirty bits of the chassis and then a few more of me feeding my tube fetish.














It took many weeks to chop all the nasty off the chassis. But from this basic chassis we had the foundation on which to build something with the ability to resist the twist.




This was also going to get in the way of the plans so it was out with the slitting disc.



So we could get a clear view of where tubes could go.

[underhauled]

Here in ireland kit cars are vry hard to own as our registration and taxation system crucifies any poor sod who either tries to blu-tac one together under his stairs or is naive enough to buy one from Harry Potter motors. (harry lives understairs for the uninitiated)

Its monumental enough to buy and restore (try find out what parts bin hungover bob scrounged in back in the death throes of Ginetta) but to cut it in half!!!!! I'm subscribing the hell out of this.

Good luck sir.

[mercedeslimos]

Barry, i think you need to build a diesel one registered as a Volkswagen on the book!