Thinking Of Buying A 944

[OGDB]

I am after some help and input from those of you who have a bit more experience of these cars than myself. I am looking at buying a new car and i would really like to buy another Porsche 944, however I need to ask some questions.

I have previously owned a 944, it was bought as a project, a non running project and after many hours it was brought back to life and i did a large amount of work on the car, however it was sold to fund a house purchase and i never got a chance of driving it on the road and appreciating it for what it was. I am now considering buying something which is in a good to go, driving state which requires little work.

The car wont be my only mode of transport and it doesn't "have" to do the work commute, which is incredibly short, or day to day tasks. That said I would very much like to be able to use the car day to day if possible. We go away quite often with a round trip of between 500 to 1000 miles and i would love to be able to drive it on trips like that. I would also like to run it all year round. I am not after a race car, I am not after a rocket ship. I am simply after something that has a cool retro appearance and is semi-practical.

I have found a 1986 2.5l in white which appeals to me in the sense that its the later model with the oval dash and the higher offset wheels (means aftermarket options are more available). My biggest problem is however that the car has an automatic gear box...

There is a bill in the vehicles history for a complete gearbox rebuild and other associated parts back in around 2015 which offers some sort of reassurance, however my concern is more if i will enjoy the auto as much as a manual. Does anyone have any experience with these gearboxes? Are they a totally abysmal disappointment of an automatic gearbox which is shockingly poor, or are they an alright design that can be lived with? Ive only ever had three autos, one DSG, a SMG and a standard auto in a J Mitsubishi. Will an auto box result in very poor fuel economy over a manual?

As it happens i have a manual 944 sat in storage which can always be used as a parts car.

Prices on the 944 seem to be on the up as of recent years, so unfortunately a nice 85.5+ 944 in guards red with a manual box and black interior seem to be increasingly hard to find within the budget i am prepared to spend.

What are the big look outs on the 944? I am aware of sill rot and checking by the B-pillar vent hole, however i am prepared to replace the whole inner and outer sills as I'm sure there are many out there that require replacement.



So in summary...



Are there any time bomb problems in the 944, especially the automatic models?



Is there anything to look out for specifically which could cripple the wallet?



Is the Auto box a big No No and worth going for something different all together?



If the auto box is awful, are there any alterations which can be made to improve it?



I know its a bit of a broad question, but is anyone using an 80's porsche as a daily driver and if so how are you finding it regards maintenance, failures, economy and so on?

[OGDB]

And a great build thread for anyone interested.

forum.retro-rides.org/thread/90280/1986-porsche-944-lux-turbo

[ChasR]

So, your questions :


Are there any time bomb problems in the 944, especially the automatic models?

-Not really. The only real issues to look out for are rust. Sills are now £1k a side before fitting, and wings are now £700 a piece, and that's when Porsche decide to make them. You can go pattern but they will never look right, and will probably cost more to get get looking almost as good.
Besides that? Not really. Subframe mounts rotting, poor rot repairs can make restoring a 944 unviable.


Is there anything to look out for specifically which could cripple the wallet?
Rust.
Dashboard cracking ; you may be able to repair them.
Lower arms - On the later cars the balljoints are not replaceable and Porsche have stopped making lower arms for them ; or at least when I last heard about it. That leaves Hartech arms (rebuilt) as your only choice at £250 a side.
Clutch or torque converter issues. A clutch change on a 944 is about a £1k job due to the labour involved.



Is the Auto box a big No No and worth going for something different all together?
I've heard varied reports but most haven't been great. If it was a 968 I'd say it would be a different story.

If the auto box is awful, are there any alterations which can be made to improve it?
Not alot!

[OGDB]

Thanks for the reply ChasR. I decided against this particular 944 for a few reasons. Unless a reasonably priced guards red oval comes up for sale in manual I’ll be sticking with what I’ve got.

Thanks again.

[ChasR]

Not a bad shout to be honest!

Although people have gone more for manuals as the 'in thing' these days, I wouldn't discount a 968 Tiptronic. A well known 968 owner in the Porsche circles (and also an ex-racer before he became too old/broke!), and a member on here who pedalled out a few cars (before he became a manual lover) quite liked the Tiptronic cars, saying it suited the car. I'll admit they are not still what you'd call cheap mind you!

If I were buying a 944 again, I'd go with the following:

-Early offset Square-Dash car. They are such a lovely thing to drive in good order
-An S2 Coupe
-A 250 Turbo, with either an S or a normal car being fine. I loved mine, although even I will admit it was quite an animal with its 300BHP; A modern hot hatch would eat it for breakfast in terms of composure etc. and even my M3 is much friendlier on the limit.

Given the last two have now become quite expensive to me, even if time has made them cooler, it would be an early offset car that I'd buy, along with spending the rest on decent shocks like Bilstein B6s and throwing on a Response Throttle Cam onto the throttle body.

[gryphon]

A little late but my 2p...

Funnily enough (re Chas's last comment) I own an early offset square dash with bilstien B6s and a throttle response cam. Also with late S2 ARBs and 16" wheels which to me made the biggest improvement for driving the car.

I've never driven one, but I've not heard a good word about the 944 auto. The 2.5 is underpowered and a 3 speed slushbox didn't help matters!

I got the chance for a very quick drive (as in brief not speedy) around the block in a Turbo with the late offset suspension... Felt heavier and more planted than mine (and you can't accuse the early ones of being skittish) and a lot less nimble. First impressions were I prefer the nimbler early car. Plus benefits of a new pair of control arms and ball joints for under £50 as they're common with the Golf MK1

Even the early ones are a bit boaty though... They're a GT car and they don't know what to do with themselves down a B road. On an a road it requires silly speeds to really feel engaging.
A 1.8 MK1 MX5 will pull away easily on both straights and corners and be much more engaging to drive in my experience. The 944 looks way cooler though and is far better at eating up the miles - it's comfortable and deceptively fast on the motorway.

Mine has been reliable over the last 5 years and been daylied and used for commuting for a couple of summers. Has failed to start once when a crank sensor died, other than that's it's been small niggles of an old car... Right now the radiator is a bit leaky!

In perperation for selling mine I needed to sort out the body work - and that is turning into a bit of a job. I'm now looking for a nearside rear quarter cut from a non rotten car :/

Not sure I've seen that build thread, I'll take a look! I've got one for my car over on Tipec forums, mostly me not having much idea what I'm doing though as it was my first project car. forums.tipec.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=20854

Edit: Ah, I thought those pics were from the build thread. I very recently re read sumpcrackers thread too try and get my enthusiasm back for mine!

[ChasR]

With the Turbos, there are a few baggy examples around, and there certainly were years ago.

My Turbo drove very differently to my S2. It may not have felt quite as nimble as an early 944, but it certainly felt like it had WAAAYY more grip, more so that my S2. But when you put the differences onto paper, it was easy to see why

Car	Turbo	S2
Mileage	175,000	127,000
Suspension	KWv3s with M030 ARBs, new subframe bushes, lower arms, 968 Castor mounts, new subframe bushes. Poly ARB bushes	Stock; I then fitted 968 Castor Mounts
Wheels	Michelin Pilot Sport 2s (N rated - I doubt it made it perfect) on 17" Cup 1 Copies	Kumho KU31s with P6000s, then KU31s all round on genuine 996 Carrera 2 17" wheels
Year	1991	1989

IMHO, especially after the difference with the M3 from Falkens to Michelins, I reckon the tyres gave the turbo 70% of its 'feel good' factor. It just gripped and gripped, and really gave a thrill. My S2 was never as sharp as the Turbo. The above also shows how two similar cars aren't always the same, even if the better car has more miles on .

[gryphon]

The turbo I drove was certainly a baggy one on ditchfinders. I got out of the car and said some words to the effect of "you've got a fair bit of work to do on that one", but a bit less blunt... I don't think he appreciated it though as the owner hasn't really talked to me since.

You could well be right on the tyres, the biggest improvement to mine by a long shot was going from 15s on ditchfinders to 16s with ZV7s (I know Avon's get mixed reviews but personally I find them good, especially for the price). Just in terms of grip I've never found the 944 lacking and it (I?) runs out of confidence before running out of grip. Having said that a good geo made a huge difference to the feel of the car, and the new ARBs have increased cornering confidence a lot, I just haven't managed to drive it much since doing that work.

Also depends what you want from the car. I've realised I prefer a car that's nimble and fun at B road speed, and that's not really the 944. I suspect it could be improved by stiffening it up with coilovers at the front, helper springs at the rear, a faster steering rack and probably some better tyres, but that's not money I want to spend to find out.

[OGDB]

Thanks both of you very much for the replies.

ChasR I am sure I've read about your old turbo, was it white and did you have a thread on here about it?

gryphon I was reading your thread at the same time I was contemplating buying the automatic car. Having read your experiences on there of the 944 in comparison to your partners MX5 it made me think that if the 944 is that uninvolving, an automatic will not work well for me. I had an automatic Import at the start of the year which was boring, and very thirsty, so I decided to give it a miss with thanks to your thread and the replies in here. Also DarylH is the owner of the car in the above photos.

Build thread.http://forum.retro-rides.org/thread/173532/86-944-lux-turbo

After a bit of thought, reading the input on here and other places I decided to continue my search for a 944, with no real specific requirements, just looking for ideal a guards red oval dash in manual, but if it was a good one I would take it. I can not justify spending a significantly large sum of money due to the house being part way through a renovation, so an S2 an S or a turbo was off the table.

I was at a local show on recently and there was a 2.7 and an S2 in attendance, one white one red and they looked great. It reminded me why I wanted one so much! I decided to keep an eye out for a 944 at money I was happy to pay with a spec I wanted. I kept an eye on all of the usual advertising sites and spotted a local Guards Red 2.5. Owner had been dailying it for 3 years. I made a few, what I would say was fair, offers which were all rejected. Put a bid in on the auction and was immediately out bit, kept going until I reached my maximum which again was outbid and the car was immediately relisted, Annoyingly.

I kept looking and found a 1989 2.7. Right colour inside and out, yellow stuff pads, braided lines, Stainless system and a few other bits and pieces, nothing major. It needed some body work but seemed to stay at fair money. I was out for a meal at the time the auction ended so put my maximum bid in at the pub with 1hr30min left which I thought was going to be a bad move, but I won the car! So now I need to plan the journey to go and collect it.

Are there many interchangeable parts between the 2.7 and the 2,5? obviously body arts are all the same but does the 2.7 run a similar engine to the 2.5? Does it use speed and reference sensors, DME? I also presume the brakes are the same?

Que a an abundance of threads asking questions!

[gryphon]

Ooh, that didn't take long! Sounds like it's had some sensible modifications too, any pics? 2.7 is probably a really good choice for affordability and rarity at the mo.

I wouldn't say uninvolving, just not that fast, although the 2.7 should have a fair bit more power than mine... Something like 190? Interested to hear what you think of it.

Afraid I really don't know much about the engine. It's the 2.5 bored and stroked to 2.7. they had to Siamese the block for the boring though, so could be more differences? Bigger valves in the head Vs the 2.5 16v as well. I would imagine the sensors didn't change too much, but that's a guess! Certainly still runs Bosch motronic.

Chassis and brakes I've never heard of being different for the 2.7, but they're relatively rare and I haven't really read much on them. 

Not sure that post was much help, but I hope you're happy with it when you pick it up!

[ChasR]

The 2.7 IIRC used the 3.0 block from the S2, but not the crank IIRC from the S2.

And yes, mine was the White turbo. For many years I missed that car, and not just because I sold it for alot less than what it is worth now.

That said, I've gone through similar thoughts with the M3, and I have to say, I'm surprised I've stuck with it!

[ChasR]

Sept 11, 2019 10:22:24 GMT gryphon said:

The turbo I drove was certainly a baggy one on ditchfinders. I got out of the car and said some words to the effect of "you've got a fair bit of work to do on that one", but a bit less blunt... I don't think he appreciated it though as the owner hasn't really talked to me since.

You could well be right on the tyres, the biggest improvement to mine by a long shot was going from 15s on ditchfinders to 16s with ZV7s (I know Avon's get mixed reviews but personally I find them good, especially for the price). Just in terms of grip I've never found the 944 lacking and it (I?) runs out of confidence before running out of grip. Having said that a good geo made a huge difference to the feel of the car, and the new ARBs have increased cornering confidence a lot, I just haven't managed to drive it much since doing that work.

Also depends what you want from the car. I've realised I prefer a car that's nimble and fun at B road speed, and that's not really the 944. I suspect it could be improved by stiffening it up with coilovers at the front, helper springs at the rear, a faster steering rack and probably some better tyres, but that's not money I want to spend to find out.

I'm intrigued as to whose car it was .

As for the involving part, you can try my M3 out. It's about as nimble (maybe moreso) than the 951 was, but it lets go far more progressively than my Turbo ever did ; that just gripped and gripped and gripped. I was astonished when I first drove mine. The M3 does have the grip mind you.

Avons I've found fine for the dry, but I've never been a fan of them in the wet. I've been tempted to try them out again, but again, we all know what we are happy with.

Sept 12, 2019 16:38:28 GMT OGDB said:

Thanks both of you very much for the replies.

Build thread.http://forum.retro-rides.org/thread/173532/86-944-lux-turbo

After a bit of thought, reading the input on here and other places I decided to continue my search for a 944, with no real specific requirements, just looking for ideal a guards red oval dash in manual, but if it was a good one I would take it. I can not justify spending a significantly large sum of money due to the house being part way through a renovation, so an S2 an S or a turbo was off the table.

I kept looking and found a 1989 2.7. Right colour inside and out, yellow stuff pads, braided lines, Stainless system and a few other bits and pieces, nothing major. It needed some body work but seemed to stay at fair money. I was out for a meal at the time the auction ended so put my maximum bid in at the pub with 1hr30min left which I thought was going to be a bad move, but I won the car! So now I need to plan the journey to go and collect it.

Are there many interchangeable parts between the 2.7 and the 2,5? obviously body arts are all the same but does the 2.7 run a similar engine to the 2.5? Does it use speed and reference sensors, DME? I also presume the brakes are the same?

Que a an abundance of threads asking questions!

So, about your car.

They are pretty similar to a 2.7. I'd personally bin the pads to be honest, and fit a decent set of Textar, Bosch or TRW pads ; all of those, especially the latter are great. M1144s are a good shout as are a few of the Ferodo DS range. I 've tried Pagid RSs but they are pretty pricey.

One of the cheapest mods you can do to your 2.7 is to fit a throttle response cam; it will make it alot nicer to drive.

I do hope the boywork isn't too bad. As said, sills are now mega money when they are available, and it's the same story for the wings.

[OGDB]

ChasR

I’ve been doing some reading and there doesn’t seem to be a huge amount of info about the 2.7. It seems it was only produced in 1989 and was produced for just one year. Supposedly the Information I have read suggests it has different head to the 2.5 although the only difference I can see mentioned is larger valves.

The block seems to be different as well with a lot of people struggling to find part availability on things like water pumps. The suggestions seem to say that the 3.0l items fit which supports your earlier comments, So the block must have some differences to the, the long and short of it is I don’t know. Yet anyway. My biggest want at the moment is to have the belts dealt with.

A throttle cam is on the list of bits to get, however I’ve not even googled them yet so I have no idea on availability or cost.

I’ve never been impressed with EBC pads in all honesty, however I have a friend with some yellows in his R32 and the thing stops exceptionally well and the complete opposite to any I’ve had. He insists it’s due to our different bedding in techniques. I intend to use the car as a daily driver, so provided the thing stops efficiently I will be a happy chap.

The body is cosmetic only from what I can see. The sills were replaced 2 years ago and they appear to have been done well. Jacking point markers are still there which I see as a good sign they’ve been replaced well. The wings look a bit iffy in all honesty, but I have a very solid pair of replacements hanging up in the garage (from when they were affordable!) which will probably go straight on regardless.

Thanks for the help.

[gryphon]

Throttle response cam is around £30, think I bought mine from RosePassion... Definitely makes the car feel more spritely.

[OGDB]

Sept 17, 2019 9:37:00 GMT gryphon said:

Throttle response cam is around £30, think I bought mine from RosePassion... Definitely makes the car feel more spritely.

I see a few supplied in the UK, thanks for the advice. I wanted to check my car had the arm style cam before I ordered a new one, I've read that some Porsches came with round cams as standard. 

Anyway I collected the car this morning from leeds and drove it nearly 5 hours home. Impressed so far. Readers ride to follow.