wu11ie
Part of things
Posts: 117
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Jan 17, 2021 10:58:19 GMT
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Donβt forget all hid lights need to be fitted with head lamp washer So itβs easier to tell if they are not factory fitted π Is that right though?, as I mentioned above the Mrs drives a 2018 Cooper S with HID's and no washers. Donβt forget all hid lights need to be fitted with head lamp washer So itβs easier to tell if they are not factory fitted π No they don't! And if it has HID fitted and is made before 2008 (I think) the washers don't need to work So they don't need washers? Might be me being petty or missing the point, it reads to me that the headlight must not be converted to fit hid or led, I have led bulbs fitted to my totally unmodified light units, so does that mean, provided the beam pattern is ok, then they shouldn't fail the mot, Ttfn Glenn No, lamps designed for filament bulbs with LED or HID units are now a fail. To fit the wrong lamp source, direct fit or not, would be considered modification or conversion. Word for word from the manual: That (to me) is open to interpretation, "Existing halogen headlamp units should not be converted" which suggests the unit should not be modified, not the bulb.
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Rich
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 6,251
Club RR Member Number: 160
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Jan 17, 2021 11:01:02 GMT
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No, lamps designed for filament bulbs with LED or HID units are now a fail. To fit the wrong lamp source, direct fit or not, would be considered modification or conversion. Word for word from the manual: That (to me) is open to interpretation, "Existing halogen headlamp units should not be converted" which suggests the unit should not be modified, not the bulb. The thing is, Itβs not open to interpretation at all. Thatβs black and white. Fitting a bulb that isnβt meant to be fitted, be it screwed in with wood screws, held in with chewing gum or being a CONVERSION bulb that fits directly, itβs been CONVERTED.
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Last Edit: Jan 17, 2021 11:01:19 GMT by Rich
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Rob M
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,915
Club RR Member Number: 41
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Jan 17, 2021 11:19:22 GMT
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Well all I can say is sod being an MOT tester!
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mk2cossie
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,954
Club RR Member Number: 77
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Jan 17, 2021 11:30:05 GMT
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Donβt forget all hid lights need to be fitted with head lamp washer So itβs easier to tell if they are not factory fitted π Is that right though?, as I mentioned above the Mrs drives a 2018 Cooper S with HID's and no washers. Probably cocked the quoting up there, but it may not be HID if it is 2018. More likely to be LED. Either way, after 2009 IF headlight washers are fitted (not actually a requirement, as it boils down to the lumen output as to whether washers are required I believe) then they should obviously work
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mk2cossie
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,954
Club RR Member Number: 77
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Jan 17, 2021 11:31:05 GMT
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Well all I can say is sod being an MOT tester! I do question why I bothered all those years ago taking the test sometimes
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Jan 17, 2021 11:39:49 GMT
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Well all I can say is sod being an MOT tester! I do question why I bothered all those years ago taking the test sometimes Tbh I have a lot of respect for mot testers But not much for the inspectors who oversee them From some of the incidents Iβve heard from different mot stations they sound a complete bunch of .....
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Last Edit: Jan 17, 2021 11:40:33 GMT by Mercdan68
Fraud owners club member 1999 Jaguar s type 1993 ford escort
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Jan 17, 2021 11:51:51 GMT
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Back on track, The fug has LED headlights They are a sealed unit that replace the standard reflector fitting So these are still ok? As they are not using the wrong lamps for the fitting and were designed to be what they are (?) Hi, Be careful of these because they are American made and may not have the correct dipping pattern, ie. left or right dipping. Does anyone know for sure if they are OK? Colin
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wu11ie
Part of things
Posts: 117
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Jan 17, 2021 11:58:32 GMT
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That (to me) is open to interpretation, "Existing halogen headlamp units should not be converted" which suggests the unit should not be modified, not the bulb. The thing is, Itβs not open to interpretation at all. Thatβs black and white. Fitting a bulb that isnβt meant to be fitted, be it screwed in with wood screws, held in with chewing gum or being a CONVERSION bulb that fits directly, itβs been CONVERTED. The headlamp unit has not been CONVERTED if you change a bulb, you've changed a bulb. If the unit has been modified in any way to accept a different bulb then it's been converted or modified.
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Jan 17, 2021 12:11:46 GMT
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The thing is, Itβs not open to interpretation at all. Thatβs black and white. Fitting a bulb that isnβt meant to be fitted, be it screwed in with wood screws, held in with chewing gum or being a CONVERSION bulb that fits directly, itβs been CONVERTED. The headlamp unit has not been CONVERTED if you change a bulb, you've changed a bulb. If the unit has been modified in any way to accept a different bulb then it's been converted or modified. That's semantics. It's blatantly obvious what the wording of the manual states and means. The bulb is an integral part of the unit, designed to meet a specific spec using a specific type of bulb. As I mentioned before, if people want to try to blag the rules that's fine, indeed if a tester wants to 'interpret' the rules differently that's up to them too but nobody can moan if they fall foul of the law, insurance or a grumpy copper because they know what the rules are, no matter how much they might like to argue to the contrary. It's not worth falling out over. Calm down dear. It's just a commercial.
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Jan 17, 2021 12:20:44 GMT
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Back on track, The fug has LED headlights They are a sealed unit that replace the standard reflector fitting So these are still ok? As they are not using the wrong lamps for the fitting and were designed to be what they are (?) Hi, Be careful of these because they are American made and may not have the correct dipping pattern, ie. left or right dipping. Does anyone know for sure if they are OK? Colin From memory they are E marked (?) tbh they arenβt brilliant as they are a bit like deely-boppers on a bumpy road (if youβve seen the grand tour beach buggy special youβll appreciate what I mean, but nowhere near as bad as that) so I have them pointing down more than forward so as not to annoy oncoming traffic. Itβs still at the dyno, and the mot has run out, so I shall book it straight in to my local place when I collect it. Weβll find out I guess as I wonβt do anything before taking it in.
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Rich
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 6,251
Club RR Member Number: 160
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Jan 17, 2021 12:38:54 GMT
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The thing is, Itβs not open to interpretation at all. Thatβs black and white. Fitting a bulb that isnβt meant to be fitted, be it screwed in with wood screws, held in with chewing gum or being a CONVERSION bulb that fits directly, itβs been CONVERTED. The headlamp unit has not been CONVERTED if you change a bulb, you've changed a bulb. If the unit has been modified in any way to accept a different bulb then it's been converted or modified. Just like a Skarfolk poster, For more information, please re-read. I believe your confusion is coming from the Ministry taking a reflector and it's light source as a headlamp so fitting the wrong bulb is a modified headlamp, however you want to argue.
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Last Edit: Jan 17, 2021 12:40:19 GMT by Rich
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ferny
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 984
Club RR Member Number: 13
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Jan 17, 2021 12:51:03 GMT
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The thing is, Itβs not open to interpretation at all. Thatβs black and white. Fitting a bulb that isnβt meant to be fitted, be it screwed in with wood screws, held in with chewing gum or being a CONVERSION bulb that fits directly, itβs been CONVERTED. The headlamp unit has not been CONVERTED if you change a bulb, you've changed a bulb. If the unit has been modified in any way to accept a different bulb then it's been converted or modified. Out of interest, what's your interpretation of a headlamp unit? To me it's the whole working part and this contains the bulb. The headlight assembly is the unit in addition to anything extra needed to fit it, like adjusters, etc. I can't think of a way to describe a headlamp unit in any other way. Without the bulb it's just a headlight?
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wu11ie
Part of things
Posts: 117
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Jan 17, 2021 14:19:41 GMT
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The headlamp unit has not been CONVERTED if you change a bulb, you've changed a bulb. If the unit has been modified in any way to accept a different bulb then it's been converted or modified. Just like a Skarfolk poster, For more information, please re-read. I believe your confusion is coming from the Ministry taking a reflector and it's light source as a headlamp so fitting the wrong bulb is a modified headlamp, however you want to argue. I'm not confused at all, the headlamp unit is the headlamp unit, the bulb is the bulb, if you have to modify the headlamp unit to accommodate HID or LED bulbs then yes, by all means it should fail, the same way halogen bulbs will fail an MOT if not properly aligned. My point is if the bulb fits in the standard headlamp without having to modify, cut, bend etc and the beam pattern is aligned properly the same way a normal halogen bulb would then why should it fail?, as I said above, if it has an appropriate light output and doesn't daze oncoming traffic as its properly aligned then what difference does a bulb make..... The headlamp unit has not been CONVERTED if you change a bulb, you've changed a bulb. If the unit has been modified in any way to accept a different bulb then it's been converted or modified. Out of interest, what's your interpretation of a headlamp unit? To me it's the whole working part and this contains the bulb. The headlight assembly is the unit in addition to anything extra needed to fit it, like adjusters, etc. I can't think of a way to describe a headlamp unit in any other way. Without the bulb it's just a headlight? I think it's just a difference of opinion, if you buy a headlamp unit from the manufacturer or ebay or whatever, 9/10 times you'll receive a bare headlamp (unless it's a used item of course) which you will then have to fit the bulbs to, so to me a headlamp unit it the bare headlamp/headlight with nothing attached, as above, the headlight unit is the headlight, and the bulb is the bulb. I'm sure we all know of and have seen people blinding other road users with blue & purple ill fitting HID kits fitted to a Corsa/fiesta etc bodged together with electrical tape, and again I agree that these should fail because they've been made to fit into a unit where they don't fit.
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ferny
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 984
Club RR Member Number: 13
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Jan 17, 2021 14:26:34 GMT
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Out of interest, what's your interpretation of a headlamp unit? To me it's the whole working part and this contains the bulb. The headlight assembly is the unit in addition to anything extra needed to fit it, like adjusters, etc. I can't think of a way to describe a headlamp unit in any other way. Without the bulb it's just a headlight? I think it's just a difference of opinion, if you buy a headlamp unit from the manufacturer or ebay or whatever, 9/10 times you'll receive a bare headlamp (unless it's a used item of course) which you will then have to fit the bulbs to, so to me a headlamp unit it the bare headlamp/headlight with nothing attached, as above, the headlight unit is the headlight, and the bulb is the bulb. I'm sure we all know of and have seen people blinding other road users with blue & purple ill fitting HID kits fitted to a Corsa/fiesta etc bodged together with electrical tape, and again I agree that these should fail because they've been made to fit into a unit where they don't fit. So in your interpretation of a headlamp unit, it has no bulb. So by fitting a bulb you've modified it? π
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wu11ie
Part of things
Posts: 117
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Jan 17, 2021 14:30:17 GMT
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I think it's just a difference of opinion, if you buy a headlamp unit from the manufacturer or ebay or whatever, 9/10 times you'll receive a bare headlamp (unless it's a used item of course) which you will then have to fit the bulbs to, so to me a headlamp unit it the bare headlamp/headlight with nothing attached, as above, the headlight unit is the headlight, and the bulb is the bulb. I'm sure we all know of and have seen people blinding other road users with blue & purple ill fitting HID kits fitted to a Corsa/fiesta etc bodged together with electrical tape, and again I agree that these should fail because they've been made to fit into a unit where they don't fit. So in your interpretation of a headlamp unit, it has no bulb. So by fitting a bulb you've modified it? π If the bulb fitted directly then no, if I had to enlarge a hole or cut or modify the bare unit in any way then yes, it's been modified. By your definition every headlamp fails from the first bulb replacement, so almost every car on the road has a modified headlight.
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Jan 17, 2021 14:33:03 GMT
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It doesn't matter if the bulb fits directly or not, the bulb has been modified to fit. HID bulbs only come in D2S and D2R, anything else is a conversion and rightly deemed so as the headlight is designed around the light source.
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ferny
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 984
Club RR Member Number: 13
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Jan 17, 2021 14:37:45 GMT
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So in your interpretation of a headlamp unit, it has no bulb. So by fitting a bulb you've modified it? π If the bulb fitted directly then no, if I had to enlarge a hole or cut or modify the bare unit in any way then yes, it's been modified. By your definition every headlamp fails from the first bulb replacement, so almost every car on the road has a modified headlight. Your mixing my definition and yours together here. Using yours then yes, but only if it's been fitted with an LED or HID bulb. Which is what the rules say. By using my definition, your definition or blending the two together the result is the same though. Did that unit originally have LED or HID bulbs? No? Fail then. I'm just trying to understand your interpretation because as I said, I think they've been pretty clear. If someone has spotted a loop hole I'd like to know how they've come to that conclusion. It's actually nice to have a sensible conversation about it too. π
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Last Edit: Jan 17, 2021 14:39:41 GMT by ferny
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Jan 17, 2021 14:48:37 GMT
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I guess part of the problem is these things are written by people who are good at writing things with consultation from people who know. So the wording seems robust until engineers or pedants (often the same thing ) try to find loopholes. When those in charge get fed up with explaining or arguing, then thats the point the rule gets rewritten to remove the ambiguity. In the mean time the testers get the rule explained and pushed back out on the front line as cannon fodder. With the additional stick of being reported to the ministry if they do it wrong Does sound a lot like being a sparky
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wu11ie
Part of things
Posts: 117
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Jan 17, 2021 14:50:32 GMT
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If the bulb fitted directly then no, if I had to enlarge a hole or cut or modify the bare unit in any way then yes, it's been modified. By your definition every headlamp fails from the first bulb replacement, so almost every car on the road has a modified headlight. Your mixing my definition and yours together here. Using yours then yes, but only if it's been fitted with an LED or HID bulb. Which is what the rules say. By using my definition, your definition or blending the two together the result is the same though. Did that unit originally have LED or HID bulbs? No? Fail then. I'm just trying to understand your interpretation because as I said, I think they've been pretty clear. If someone has spotted a loop hole I'd like to know how they've come to that conclusion. It's actually nice to have a sensible conversation about it too. π I don't know how to write it any clearer, If the bulb fits and is aligned properly the bulb type shouldn't make a difference, that's what I'm saying. Anything can be made to fit most cars, if it's held in with cable ties and electrical tape and clearly not supposed to be there then yes it's unsafe and should be failed.
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mk2cossie
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,954
Club RR Member Number: 77
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Jan 17, 2021 14:55:33 GMT
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The headlamp unit has not been CONVERTED if you change a bulb, you've changed a bulb. If the unit has been modified in any way to accept a different bulb then it's been converted or modified. Just like a Skarfolk poster, For more information, please re-read. I believe your confusion is coming from the Ministry taking a reflector and it's light source as a headlamp so fitting the wrong bulb is a modified headlamp, however you want to argue. Having just re-read that link to the manual and studied it more, they do say existing halogen units CONVERTED to LED or HID are a fail. But a bulb replacement to LED is a bulb replacement. You take one bulb out, and fit another. DVSA are utter shitbags for wording, so it could be argued if you have a direct replacement LED that DOES have a good pattern and no scatter, its fine
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