1996 Citroen AX VTR

[norfolkaxman]

Hello everyone and especially fans of odd angular little French cars. I have had a few AXs over the years - I bought one brand new in 1995 (red 1.0 Debut, did 60,000 miles in it in three years).  Always liked the idea of a fast road / track day AX, and a few months ago I spotted a tidy looking Dimension 3 door for sale at a fair price. It's a nice original old car and drives beautifully, but not so perfect that I'm ruining something rare and precious.

I've cleared a bit of space and time in my workshop.  I normally work on old Land Rovers so this will be a bit different for me.  I went to fetch the AX from the farm where it has been sitting since I bought it. Battery was dead but it fired up straight away on a jump pack and drove onto the trailer. The adventure starts here...







I'm not planning anything adventurous for this one: Saxo VTR engine, box and various suspension bits, but keep it looking as standard and original as possible. I spent a long time trying to decide whether to go VTR or VTS but in the end I found a VTR breaking to give me all the bits I need, and it looks like an easier conversion anyway.  First job is to strip the front end and remove the engine and box so I can fettle the bodyshell. There are a couple of rust holes in the inner wings and front end of both sills but otherwise it is all good (I think).

[norfolkaxman]

Engine and gearbox now out with a bit of help from Mark here.  




Here's all the rot I have found so far:







For a 25 year old French car it is amazingly solid, especially as some of the steel is so thin you can almost see through it. I'm planning to spend a bit of time painting and rustproofing.  There are some areas that are known for rotting out on these cars (e.g. edges of boot floor).  I'll get the welding done while I try and work out what to do with the suspension.  There's no anti roll bar on an AX10 for starters.

[norfolkaxman]

Couple more hours on the little AX today, removing the back axle. The more I dig into this shell the better it gets which is a bit unnatural really. Every other car I have ever owned has got worse the closer you look. I mean, just look at this boot floor:



There is a tiny bit of scabbiness along the seam on the other side:



Underneath?  Looks like someone has sprayed the boot floor with something.  



I've got the back axle on the floor and comparing it with the Saxo VTR one which looks OK now I have cleaned it up, although the discs and calipers are DOA:



I'll need to source some different handbrake cables, can't remember if an AX GTi has rear discs.  But I now need to decide what to do with the load sensing bias valve on the back axle.  It looks like it has been leaking brake fluid.  I know what it is supposed to do, but do I need one? The AX axle doesn't have one, not sure whether this is just some piece of safety legislation that came in between the AX and Saxo, or because the Saxo has discs all round. Anyone know for sure whether I need it?

[rysz]

This is an excellent thing!

It'll be a riot with the bigger Tu engine in there!

Looking forward to seeing more progress as it happens!

Rysz.

[dandam]

I had many hours of fun in a AX GT, great fun things

[Dez]

Load sensing value- it depends if you plan on carrying a wide variety of different loads. If you’re never gunna change the weight on the rear by more than 100kg or so, I wouldn’t bother if it’s going to be a hassle sourcing one.
What you do need to do is add a bias valve to the rear brake line somewhere accessible (ideally from the drivers seat) so you can turn the rear brakes down. Once it’s together and on the road a few good emergency stops will tell you if you have too much rear brakes and you can dial them down accordingly, and you’ll probably never have to adjust it again after that.
I’ve done this for people on cars/trucks were the original parts are now unobtainum and it’s a viable and cheap workaround.

[norfolkaxman]

This is what you get for being cocky.  I decided to drop the fuel tank out so I could weld the rear ends of the sills without blowing up my workshop. I'm getting very cautious as I get old, a few years ago welding next to a plastic tank wouldn't have bothered me. The filler pipe took a bit of wheelarch with it as it came out:




I also poked the crusty boot floor seam and made more holes:



There are a fair few rusty edges to welded seams, problems just starting.  I've always wanted to do this with my cars, get on top of the rust before it has a chance to take hold. If I deal with this stuff now this little AX might outlive me.

Just been talking to my good friend and massive time-waster James who comes to my workshop and stops me doing anything useful. He said "why don't you turn it into a van?"  I looked at doing that years ago with another AX but the shell was too far gone.  Tempted, but the interior on this AX is mint and it would be a shame to put most of it in a skip. 

[norfolkaxman]

Body repairs going well so far, only set fire to the thing about twenty times. Citroen seam sealant burns very nicely. Just the front jacking points to sort out now. I advertised the old 1.0 engine and surprisingly got a bite. Turns out they are quite sought after for "Junior Rods" stock car racing which has a 1000cc capacity limit. So my old engine is going to be a race engine. Yay! The buyer had a Saxo front anti roll bar which I took as part payment.

More good news with the rear brake calipers which turn out to be all good apart from a bit of corrosion on the sliders. I should have the shell sitting on its new suspension by the end of this week. Can't decide whether to strip the engine for inspection, or just chuck a new cambelt at it and see how it runs.

[75swb]

I'll take cambelt and see how it runs. Gets the car on the road quicker, stops you going down a rabbit hole of shiney new parts and blowing the budget. If it turns out to need work you've only wasted a bit of time and coolant putting it in to rip it out again. L

[LAndy]

I had an AX GTi back in the day and it was so much fun! 4-1 manifold and a Supersprint (I think) exhaust system with 106 Rallye steelies and 3-point harnesses (what a pain for a DD!). I literally abused that thing everywhere and it only ever once fought me.

I was driving my ex to the airport at like 3am in the middle of the snake pass between Sheffield and Manchester and I hit a pot hole while doing about 60mph, everything shut off, lights, engine, radio... everything. With the gf asleep I dipped the clutch and bumped it and it fired back-up and everything came back on! GF woke up and asked what the bump was, told her it was just another pot hole while I was praying inside to the car just to at least make it to the airport.

Oh wait, actually it fought me 3 times!

Middle of the night, country road, pot hole (see a pattern?). All the lights went off - fortunately the engine kept running this time, I just thumped the top of the dash and it lit back up!

And the final time was the heater core was leaking, so pulled the dash apart and replaced it. The engine wouldn't fire up. No matter what we did it wouldn't run. Had a spare set of new plugs waiting for the next service, stuck them in and away it went - Still can't explain that one!

Oh... four times!

Finished work one day and the immobilizer wouldn't turn off. faffed around for ages before giving up and getting it towed home, rolled it off the truck, thought "I wonder if?" and yep... fired up right away... Bleeding thing.

So in the end, it wasn't that reliable but it was alot of fun, especially dusting bigger cars from the lights.

Looking forward to more on this!

[norfolkaxman]

Jan 25, 2022 18:43:22 GMT LAndy said:

Oh... four times!

Gotta love French electrics.  Minor annoyances of building retro cars include ordering parts online (wishbones, fuel pump, rear discs) and then getting a message back asking me for the reg and VIN number so they can confirm I have ordered the right parts.  Haven't yet had anyone actually refuse to sell me anything TBF but getting bored with explaining "it's a project".

More minor annoyances: I just used up the last of my Argoshield on a customer vehicle and it's an hour round trip to fetch another cylinder. About time I found a supplier who will deliver to places where locals still point and wave at passing cars.

[norfolkaxman]

It's all gone wrong. Of course it has.  I cleaned up the Saxo rear axle, made up some nice new brake pipes and bolted the thing in place.  I then bolted on a couple of old wheels and tyres from a 106 I stripped a while back and found they fouled the outer arches and not just a little bit.  I tried the summer wheel set from my 106 (5J13 ET20) and you can see the result here.  




The VTR axle is around 137.4 cm over hub faces.  AX 3 stud is 133.7.  My 106 (drums, 4 stud) is around 136.  I want to keep fairly narrow steel rims, going for 165/70R13 tyre size or maybe 165/65 as I don't like the feel of big wide low profile tyres on small light cars. I could fit wheels with less offset, but I spent ages hunting through wheel specs and can't find anything 5J13 PCD 4x108 ET40ish with a 65.1mm centre bore. Or I could roll the arches, it's a single-skinned panel, but bodywork is definitely not my thing and it will probably end up looking like a crinkle-cut potato crisp.

In any case I'm still not happy about putting discs on the back of this car without a proportioning valve, made more tricky by it having diagonal split brakes.  I've spent a little while playing with bits and found that my 106 drums will fit on the AX stub axles, the stub axle threads are about 3mm shorter so I'll need a slightly shallower stake nut but that shouldn't be impossible.

So I'm thinking - have the old AX axle refurbished and lowered about 20mm, then fit 106 drums, hubs and backplates.  Hopefully I can then use the AX handbrake cables and I don't have to worry about the back wheels locking up under heavy braking. Just before I push the button on this, can anyone tell me why it won't work? Meanwhile I'll get on with the front suspension and see what other problems I run into. I'm glad I'm not doing this for a customer anyway.

[mk2cossie]

If it were me in that position, I'd take a 1mm slitting disc in an angle grinder and trim the arch lip down

As for the proportioning valve, see if you can source on from a 306/405 setup and instead of the spring to pull the arm, use a bit of threaded bar and turn it in to a fixable position valve

[legend]

surely someone does a twin line manual brake proportioning valve?

[norfolkaxman]

I hate my life. Lifted the carpet to get at the wishbone nuts and found this:




Now escalating rapidly just like every project car ever:

[OAY842F]

Ah. Still, gives us more updates to look forward to!

[norfolkaxman]

Well the nasty little heap is now back on its (4 stud) wheels and I'm fast learning from experience what I could probably have found out if I'd spent a bit of time researching what other people have done to their AXs.  





I swapped the AX top mounts onto the Saxo struts, didn't realise at this point that the lower spring cups are detachable so I kept the Saxo springs which came with the struts.  The Saxo strut inserts were both dead - one had been mullered with mole grips on the piston rod, and the other had no fluid in it. Must have been fun driving that.  The inserts from the AX struts fitted just fine. AX track rod ends bolted up, needs the tracking doing as it is a bit pigeon-toed as is. But even on 155/70s it is looking a bit more butch.  There's something unsettling about 3-stud wheels, reminds me of the old Cold Ware era Dacias and that is not a good thing.

Having found that I can change the spring cups (the Saxo springs are way too long and strong) I've been rummaging around in parts catalogues and it looks like there wasn't much difference between the AX GTi and the lesser models suspension-wise, apart from an ARB. I'm starting to think that for the back roads around here, low and stiff is exactly what I don't want.  Fine on a butter-smooth track, but I think I might actually try running this on stock suspension (plus ARB) before I start spending money on springy stuff.  Ideally I'd like to drop it about 20mm just for the looks, but by keeping things standard for now I might be able to actually get it on the road before I get bored and stick it under a dustsheet for the next five years.

So the struts will need to come off again to swap the springs and cups, I'll probably treat them to new inserts, also one of the wheel bearings is a bit rumbly. For now I'm going to play with the new engine for a while, cambelt it and see if I can get it in today.

[norfolkaxman]

Short update: cambelt change took about 15 minutes (water pump popped straight out no bother), but engine is still on the workshop floor. Reason: clutch is goosed so I've ordered a new one. Old clutch is a Valeo and most likely the original so I don't think the engine has done starship mileage. Supposed to be 120K but I bought it already out of the car on the strength of a phone camera video so I'll be a bit nervous until I hear it running.

I then got carried away and bought some Bilstein shocks, new front springs and a load of other mechanical bits. This is going to be so nice and tight to drive, pretty much everything downstream of the gearbox will be new or recon. Really looking forward to driving this, thinking about it keeps the dream alive when I find more rust.

[skodacious]

I am not sure if this is any help but did notice that the AX GT has round wheelarches with plastic arch covers. Would that help with the axle width issue?

This is going to be fun once done - hope you don't find any more holes!

[norfolkaxman]

Jan 28, 2022 18:57:31 GMT skodacious said:

I am not sure if this is any help but did notice that the AX GT has round wheelarches with plastic arch covers.

So it does.  I never noticed that before.  That would certainly explain why I'm having trouble getting clearance: I was actually half-expecting problems, but it will be nice if I can solve this one without bodywork mods.  I don't just want subtle with this car, I want invisible.  Or at least as invisible as a 26 year old boxy little blue car can be in the sea of anonymous monochrome blobs that makes up modern traffic.