1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

[johnthesparky]

I guess you’ll enjoy having a rolling project though now

Have enjoyed the thread so far too, and didn’t notice spelling mistakes... so either your writing isn’t too bad, or my reading is equally as bad as your writing

[broady]

I only notice them when i reread it. So just don't reread it! I'm not enjoying it all that much this weekend.

I am at my wits end with wheel geometry. So any gurus out there read on and tell me where I'm going wrong. Ill probably ramble on a bit, but I want to learn.

Ive got a set of dunlop optical gauges. Not disssimilar to these.



They were set up as per, offer one up to the wheel to space the pegs to the rim diameter, this was translated to the second gauge. Then oposite pegs were set just touching. I then looked down the scope and aligned the hair with the line on the reflection in the mirror. Then I slip the scale to read zero and locked the scale down.

So ive had trouble with the car pulling to the left, so I went back to basics. All tyre pressures were set correctly, I'm on standard wheels, stanard off set. Next I checked the suspensions was level. The drivers rear was down about 10mm. I corrected this.







I went for a 10 mile drive and this gave the suspension a good bounce around allowing itto settle. It was nicely level.





Pre flight checks then, level at all 4 corners, tyre pressures set, car on flat and level ground.

Setting the wheels in the straight ahead position seems to be a very subjective art. My cars been in kit for and is pulling to the left, so whats straight ahead? The tyres are obviously scubbing so I can cant find a straight a head. To find the middle i turned the steering wheel from lock to lock and counted the turns, then just turned the wheel half that amount.

No matter how hard I looked I couldnt see where the wheels were pointing, it was so slight. So I used the string method, two long lengths tied to axel stands running paralell with the car. Measured against the front and rear hubs along with reference to each other at the front and back.

Getting the wheels in the ahead position was important as it says the camber is to be set with the wheel ahead.

Spec is 1deg 20' +/-20' roughly 1-1.6 degrees positive camber.

Both fronts set to 1.2. This was checked at two points on each wheel and then rolled forward half a turn and checked twice more.





Camber set, a quick road test to settle it. 1.2 remained the reading. So i set the string up again and measured the wheel rims realtive to the paralell with the steering wheel set halfway between the two locks. This crude sketch shows the readings.



This would make it seem obviousl why the car pulls to the left, the right front has got alot of toe in. Now with the track arm being at the back of the hubs, one would assume shortening the right hand track rod would reduce the toe on the front wheel and remove the pull to the left. But I did this and got it set much more like the near side. Is this the right thing to do?


Feeling rather pleased with myself I put my dunlop optical gauges on and it read 0.5 degrees toe in.

The specification is 40' +/- 15' toe in. This translates to 0.41 to 0.92 degress. So once again its within spec.

I then took the car for a drive and its no better what so ever. I was at this all afternoon, and no matter what I changed nor in what direction it still pulled left. after jsut 5 miles I can put my hand on a front tyre and it noticably warm, so its clearly scubbing. Nothing is bent or broken. So go on that, what the magic chant that is clearly a secret within the wheel alignment industry? Break the magicians code please before i end up paying someone to do it for me.

[broady]

Lets see if my descriptive powers and rough sketches can explain this then.

I suspected the issue lay with the bottom ball joints, as they're eccentric ive since realised this effectively gives adjustable caster.

Remembering I had a set of old arms at my parents I popped in this evening and collected them, just to get my hands on the old ball joints. This joints have the groove in them, where as my febi replacements didnt have a groove in them for alignmen, thus not giving me and clue how to orientate them. Always prefering to understand what and why I'm digging a littler deeper than "line this notch up with a mark because the manual says to" I wanted to know what the orientation is when things were lined up.

The manual states these are to be installed with this cut out facing forwards. This is a very old but original ball join, you can see the notch in the top.



Two steps back, using these highly accurate technical drawings, clearly I didnt remember to set this up when I installed them. This is how the car was set.



Once this had been realised I rotated one to get the offset symetrical.



With me so far? I know those complex drawings are hard to understand!

I then took a look at an original item. You can see here its clearly and ofset backways which i believe is supposed to provide some positve caster.



I drove the car this evening with the ball joints in the symetrical set up and it is 90% better, theres a slight left pull. But its next to nothing by comparison to the previous set up.

Obviously I now need to turn my ball joints a further 90 degrees to introduce this correct caster. Then I shouldnt have too much trouble setting camber and toe. As yet it may not be right but at least I now understand what the hell was wrong and why I couldnt get anywhere close.

[broady]

Been a week while since I surfaced but heres a little update. Ive been enjoying having a summer more than anything this year. Weekends away experiencing things ect and generally being outside. It has been a nice change. In the last couple of weeks ive taken a look at the car again.

Little jobs like finding the right size c clip, ordering and fitting one to the end of the speedo cable. Satisfying



The sad news is the nylon insert in the knob didnt last, It obviously stressed the plastic and its cracked. Luckily I got myself a second knob with threads in. It was cleaned and installed.





One or two other small jobs have been are being tinkered with. But I shall return to those.

My main focus while its been well over 25c is paint work. So who can help this bear of small brain? I seem to have the hang of the actual machine polishing, I can shine it up with out generating swirls. But I seem to fail at colour sanding. As you can see in the shot with the flourecant tube, there's a number of small scratched. I have been using 1500g on a soft flexy pad. With a hose pipe running and ocassional rubs of soap on the 1500 to stop the paint sticking. I use a light pressure and work the area for a short period Rather than a few hard firm strokes.



I can get finishes like this to the cameras eye.







So, why so scratchy? What monkey no do right?

[dikkehemaworst]

Love to read everything, but have nothing to add.
Your car really shines , who cares for tiny scratches.
Thanks for sharing.

[broady]

Thank for the comment. I'm coming around to the idea of a 6fter. A few ideas have been proffered. The most sensible seeming is that its poor prep. And the scratched are actually in the primer. Because I'm using celly its just shrunk into the scratches.

[jonsey]

@grumpynorthener is the man to speak to regarding colour sanding / polishing. Cool car by the way and an impressive amount of work done too.

[Deleted]

Ok - Can you advise what compound polish that you are using (Brand & Type) - what machine polisher you have and what mop / pad that you are using on it ?

[jim]

It looks amazing! I can't believe it's the same car to be honest!

As for the broken knob (hahahahahahahaha!) try filling it with epoxy resin as it'll fill the cracks and it can be drilled and tapped - there's loads of videos of people doing stuff with it on youtube.

I'm looking forward to seeing the fast next week

[broady]

Jul 25, 2019 7:50:41 GMT @grumpynorthener said:

Ok - Can you advise what compound polish that you are using (Brand & Type) - what machine polisher you have and what mop / pad that you are using on it ?

Using Farecla G3 with the white sponge. I had also been finishing that with G10 and a the black sponge. But in the recent photos I hadn't bothered with the G10 as it looked curse word after G3.

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-X-FARECLA-G-MOP-MOP-HEAD-WHITE-VELCRO-COMPOUNDING-150MM-HOOK-LOOP-BUFF-PAD/233187190945?hash=item364b0a28a1:g:YZYAAOSwLilakvwN

www.machinemart.co.uk/p/clarke-cp185-sander-polisher/

Couple of link there to the bits I'm using.

It has been mentioned on another forum, it could me marks in the primer. I did very carefully do a small area to 2000, it was a huge improvement and I think the marks that were left, were in the primer. Which is a curse word!

[Deleted]

Jul 28, 2019 9:08:42 GMT broady said:

Jul 25, 2019 7:50:41 GMT @grumpynorthener said:

Ok - Can you advise what compound polish that you are using (Brand & Type) - what machine polisher you have and what mop / pad that you are using on it ?

Using Farecla G3 with the white sponge. I had also been finishing that with G10 and a the black sponge. But in the recent photos I hadn't bothered with the G10 as it looked curse word after G3.

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-X-FARECLA-G-MOP-MOP-HEAD-WHITE-VELCRO-COMPOUNDING-150MM-HOOK-LOOP-BUFF-PAD/233187190945?hash=item364b0a28a1:g:YZYAAOSwLilakvwN

www.machinemart.co.uk/p/clarke-cp185-sander-polisher/

Couple of link there to the bits I'm using.

It has been mentioned on another forum, it could me marks in the primer. I did very carefully do a small area to 2000, it was a huge improvement and I think the marks that were left, were in the primer. Which is a curse word!

Ok - Just backtracked through your thread - 600's for flatting primer should be fine prior to your cellulose top coat finish being applied - you can always flat back with 600's and then quickly go over it with some 800's for piece of mind if you wished but I would not go any finer than this - providing you have enough depth of paint and with a solvent base I would normally apply a mist coat then couple of medium density coats over the top of the mist coat followed by a thinnish coat (more thinners than paint) over the top of that to flow the paint out BUT only if its a solid non metallic colour - that should give you enough depth to polish with - then wet flatted with 800's / 1200's / 1800's has required then machine polished and it should be fine - I don't think that its your prep with the primer more the polish products that you are using - I have never rated Farecla products and will not use them - there is a much better system that 3M market - link below

www.3m.co.uk/3M/en_GB/collision-repair-uk/car-repair-and-refinish-processes/polishing-and-finishing/compounding-and-polishing/

I appreciate that you would have spend yet more money replacing the products that you currently have but it's a wise investment and produces significantly better results than you have already achieved

When machine polishing I would always recommend the sponge type mops and not the lambs wool type and never exceeding a polishing speed above 900RPM

By all means post up any further issues / questions / problems that you may have and I will do my best to respond to them

Here is a few pics of a 1500's wet flat and machine polish to first stage using 3M Fast Cut Compound that I am currently undertaking







Chris

[broady]

It would seem that theory was mostly wrong. I don't know why but something about the block was bugging me. So I sacked it off. Here is a shot of the roof which I used the flexi block with 1500. Pardon my french but its curse word awful!



5 minutes later, a piece of 1500 and my hand.



Far from a mirror but you can see a huge improvement. So it would seem that for some reason I am adding dozens of scratches when I use the flexi block and produce a much better finish using my hand and light pressure. Yet everything ive read says its best to use a block to get a nice uniform finish. Anyway, the block is gone, it is an ex block ect ect.

After a little more work I got to this. There are still marks in there, but they're so small the camera cant pick them out. Hopefully they wont be visible in natural light. Electric light is a harsh critic!



@grumpynorthener I thank you for the advice, first of all you made me go back and have another go. I don't mind spending a bit to get the results. my bottle of G3 is on its 3rd car now, so Ive had value from it. Given what I seem to have achived with my current kit, I'm going to stick at it. I just want it to look respectable for summer. I have always planned to bring it up a level this winter. And I think the 3M stuff will do that. So ill get some bought.

I think my only question now is, what the hell was I doing with the block to ruin the paint like that?

[broady]

One fruther comment, that link says its for clear coat polishing. Is it suitable for paint as well?

[Deleted]

Jul 29, 2019 21:30:08 GMT broady said:

One fruther comment, that link says its for clear coat polishing. Is it suitable for paint as well?

Very much so - I use the 3M polish range for everything - solvent bases, clear coats, direct gloss 2 pack paints, existing finishes of unknown paints etc - if your flatting by hand is working then stick with it - just be cautious in not applying too much pressure with your fingertips otherwise you will create furrows in the paint which are difficult to remove - always try to use the palm of your hand. G3 was all the range once but its now surpassed by far better products (IMO) - but your results are yielding a nice finish that even some of the so called professional body shops would be envious of - keep at it

[jim]

That's looking amazing - hurry up and get it sorted for Friday!

[luckyseven]

That looks much better. I have no idea why, but I had similar results to you when trying to wet sand. Using a block resulted in all kinds of imperfections, especially where the paper would kind of "grab" the paint and kind of gouge at it no matter how much water I used. It also seemed to clog the paper really quickly and then the debris clogging the paper would leave scratches in the paint.

Just doing it by hand... no problems at all.

Maybe the block kind of rocks the paper back and forth a bit instead of gliding? Dunno. Guess I'm just not cut out to be a paint guy. But I am great at using my hands

[broady]

Jul 30, 2019 9:11:59 GMT @grumpynorthener said:

Jul 29, 2019 21:30:08 GMT broady said:

One fruther comment, that link says its for clear coat polishing. Is it suitable for paint as well?

Very much so - I use the 3M polish range for everything - solvent bases, clear coats, direct gloss 2 pack paints, existing finishes of unknown paints etc - if your flatting by hand is working then stick with it - just be cautious in not applying too much pressure with your fingertips otherwise you will create furrows in the paint which are difficult to remove - always try to use the palm of your hand. G3 was all the range once but its now surpassed by far better products (IMO) - but your results are yielding a nice finish that even some of the so called professional body shops would be envious of - keep at it

Definately going to try the 3M, I'm now seeing swirls in certain light. But ill live with them till I try the 3m stuff. I can see a couple of wobbles ive put in using my fingers. Again I'm willing to accept this over a car polished with 80 grit. I thank you for your help/advice/motivation. Its helping me check off the issues which have made me less than interested in using the car.

Jul 30, 2019 10:10:01 GMT luckyseven said:

That looks much better. I have no idea why, but I had similar results to you when trying to wet sand. Using a block resulted in all kinds of imperfections, especially where the paper would kind of "grab" the paint and kind of gouge at it no matter how much water I used. It also seemed to clog the paper really quickly and then the debris clogging the paper would leave scratches in the paint.

Just doing it by hand... no problems at all.

Maybe the block kind of rocks the paper back and forth a bit instead of gliding? Dunno. Guess I'm just not cut out to be a paint guy. But I am great at using my hands

Glad its not just me! I think for my next one ill work hard at earning more money to pay someone else to do it

[broady]

Jul 30, 2019 9:38:21 GMT jim said:

That's looking amazing - hurry up and get it sorted for Friday!

I can dream of having it sorted for then! I just need to hope its raining to hide my sins

[jim]

It was great to see you and the fasty on friday, I'm impressed in how much you've done to it!

I got a decent snap of her after we parked up

[broady]

Lets see if we can produce something cohearent then. Ive been using the car rather than working on it. But I have taken it for a 4 wheel alignment. Its safe to say I wasnt ever going to get anywhere on my own.



So thats the before an after, ignore the limits on the diagram. They didnt have my car preprogrammed and I took my specs with me. So the lasers we simply used to get a reading. It was all over the show before. Now I'm left with the front end is well inside spec and the ball joints are set up correctly.

The rear remains the issue. I have to drive with some RH down on. And looking at my readings there, the OSR is at full adjustment. and needs to read about 2.5 dgrees toe in (+2.5). So at -0.15 its pointing the wrong way.

/\
//

I spent quite some some reading up about adjustment and set up. But the car is by the book. So that left me to look at the car. Wheel off and using a reasonably straigh edge. I'm not sure how reliable this is as a datum, but.

OS



NS



As you can see the OS has a gap between the rule and the seam. If the seam is reliable it is suggesting that the arm is bent. This kind of bend would be consistant with the alignment issue I have with that wheel. Ive got a spare arm which ill be digging out this weekend for some measuring. But What do we all think?

In the mean time, ive had a weekend at skegvegas and got two little gems.

A dipable rear view mirror in just about mint condition, which will save me having my tired one resilvered. This was £20



And this 1/4in over size diameter 4 into one header that has never been used and the bloke let me mug him for £15



Enjoyable nonsence