1962 Rochdale Olympic - Let's crack on

[rustempire]

Hi,

I just got directed here from the awards nominations.

Your car is awesome and a great story, but it's very sad to hear of its current state.

I'm no expert, especially on K series but it seems strange to me that it kills engines so readily, when they run fine in so many caterhams. I'd be inclined to think there's something in your set up that's not helping. I'm wondering if it relates to the super high gearing but that's just random speculation.

Anyway, give us an update on your plans, if it was mine I'd run it as a 1.6 for a while, to try and find a reliable (if under powered) setup and just to enjoy the driving around and the stunning visual appeal of a unique car.

Best of luck!

Rob

[plasticfantastic]

Wow, just read through this thread and i truly cant believe the problems you have had with this car!

It is a stunning little machine and you really have to try and not let the engine ruin the car for you.

What is the current state of it now? Are there any other engines you would consider fitting instead?

Awsome project and cant wait to see a little more on it! Everyone needs a GRP monocoque in their lives!

[mdh]

Dude that must be sooooo gutting.

Are you gonna put the 1600 back in for a while and at least get some enjoyment from the car? It'll still be a grin with a mild 1600...

Maybe shove that p.i.t.a 1900 under the bench and forget about it for a while?!!

[Clement]

I think my colleagues have spotted me not working cause I smiled and cried alternatively twice I wish you don't hate the car too much, the world needs crazy English cars (driven by crazy English guys sometimes )!

[alolympic]

Right, time for a small update.
2012 will see this thread come alive I promise you!!

Following on from my last post -
This is where the car was laid to rest until I could get it towed -


The car went back to ***** - boomerang!
***** again tried the turn the crank and nothing. So, engine came out again. Once removed however, the crank turned. Mmm......
It turns out, the issue was the starter motor. It was obviously not disengaging from the flywheel. After a bit of research, this was confirmed as a common issue with inline K series installations in Caterhams. The fix - an expensive Brise starter motor. So, the credit card came out again for a new starter.
***** then set about refitting the engine, and fitting the new starter. I picked the car up, and the difference in the starter gear was immediate, much better.
So - hopes raised again, and seemingly, engine was still alive......

My next job was to get the braking system looked at, as I still wasn't convinced they were giving me the right amount of stopping power........

[alolympic]

Next, the car went to another kit car workshop to check over the brakes. My suspicion was correct, they took the car for a test drive and said they didn't want to drive it again, the brakes were so poor.
The brakes seemed incapable of locking the wheels for example.
The car has a bespoke pedal box, servo and master cylinder from a Metro, connecting to the BMW E30 calipers.
Something somewhere in the set up isn't right. So, with not really knowing anything about braking systems I started on my own research. This was mostly to try and understand any info that I was given about the car from the garage, rather than diagnosing myself.
The pedal ratio isn't ideal, but that is forced because of the packaging of the car. A pedal box mounted to the top of the bulkhead doesn't leave a lot of room for a long pedal, no way around it without trying to mount a pedal box in a frame the otherside of the bulkhead - which would be a lot of work.
The garage felt that the issue must be down to the size of the master cylinder.
Now, everything I was reading was advising to use as small a master cylinder bore size as possible, which backs up the choice of the Metro's 11/16" which was fitted.
The garage however advised that the master cylinder was not of sufficient size too small, and not able to move enough fluid. So, after much scratching of heads (which I seemingly paid for) they tried a larger master cylinder from a 2. Nissan Primera.
I wasn't 100% about this, my gut feel said this sounded like the wrong way to go, but I trusted these guys as they built Tiget Sports cars for a living.
They explained to me that this had improved the situation, but the brakes were still not feeling as strong as they should.

While the car was with these guys, they advised to get the car on the rolling road, because the engine was clearly not running well on the current map. This was always part of the plan anyway.
So, the car was put on the rollers.
The fuel rail on the car is fitted with 4 extra injectors and the stock map was only operating 4.
It was also found that there was a dirty plug lead which only became evident at higher rpm, but which knackered up the plugs and took a bit of finding. So a new set of plugs went in , the plug lead cleaned up OK and the car was seen to pull smoothly all teh way to 7,500 rpm, achieving 110 / 130 mph in 3 rd gear on the rollers, confirming the high gearing.

Without a full spec on the engine, the power run was restricted to 6,800 rpm, achieving 148 bhp at the wheels equivalent to 180 bhp at the flywheel, but with lots more to come apparently, as the printout shows the rising curve.

At the back of my mind, I was still nervous about the engine. *****, and 2 other independent garages had commented on the unsavoury noises coming from the engine. I was telling myself that this was related to the engine being on running in oil, which doesn't have the same protection qualities as a fully synthetic.
Wishful thinking.....
I picked the car up from the garage and noticed 2 things very quickly;
1) the brakes were still wibblepoo
2) the engine now ran a lot smoother - but still had a ticking sound to it.....
oh, and a 3rd - paying people by the hour like this for any work is crazy expensive and sometimes can lead to underwhelming changes!!

So, I did an early morning drive down to London and to be fair, the car didn't feel like it missed a beat. It's comfortable - if extremely loud inside - and 220 miles was covered with ease.

Next - another attempt to get the brakes sorted

[RobinJI]

Ah man, that really sucks, I can't wait for you to finally have some good luck with this! I'm glad you managed a decent drive in it without problems though.

With the brakes, if you can post up the cylinder sizes, (M/C, and all the slaves), the disc sizes (preferably to the centre of the pads rather than the outside edge), the tyre sizes and the pedal ratio then we should be able to give you a good idea of what size M/C you'll be after.

[mdh]

Doesnt the Staniforth book cover pedal ratios, m/c and caliper sizes etc?

Well worth a read!

Nice to see the Olympic finally managaing a road trip!!

[DWDarkWheels]

I've only glanced over this thread. I dunno how I missed this before. Such a pretty little car. I'm familiar with the Olympic, but what you've done to modernise the styling is just lovely. I love old cars sympathetically modernised.
Sad to here about repeated engine woes. I know it sucks the enthusiasm right out of you.

[alolympic]

So, the next journey for the car was down to some guys down in Fareham called Southways Automotive.
These guys had been recommended to me and impressed me over the phone with their outlook.
I took the car to them primarily as another opinion on the brakes.
When I turned up they had some nice stuff in the workshop (I'll get some photos when I next go back).
After doing their own testing and research they found the braking situation a bit baffling.
They too said the brakes were poor.
They tested the amount of pressure at the calipers and it was indeed very low. They also checked the servo, and found that it had nowhere near enough vacuum. They're reckoning that was the engine, and more specifically the wild cams that were not generating enough vacuum.
Removing the servo would have no disadvantage at this stage, but it wouldn't help either, so we went another route.
An electric pump from a BMW E43 M3. Upon testing, that brought the vacuum pressure up 3 fold.
That helped, but obviously a servo is more about lessening the pressure needed at the pedal, rather than generating more pressure at the caliper so we still had the same original issue.
All thinking took the guys back to the fact that the original Metro master cylinder size was right.
So, we bought another Metro master cylinder and tried it
Do you know what.......transformed!
The brakes were massively improved. I wasn't in complete fear of needing to brake suddenly.

So, going to a larger master cylinder wasn't the answer. After all that it must have just been a component fault, rather than a component mismatch.
That was an expensive exercise - very, very frustrating, but at least it is fixed.

I was about to set off from Fareham when we noticed coolant dripping from a drain hole. We checked all pipework but the leak was actually coming from the heater matrix. So, I had to leave the car with them and get the train back to London. Mmmm......
Another large bill for labour charges later and the matrix has been fixed.


Sorry for so many words - and no pics. When things are going wrong, photos tend to be last on my mind.

Next instalment - the engine........

[alolympic]

Right, now to THAT engine.

Even after a full oil change to fully synthetic, it ain't sounding good.

This is the engine running, with my phone recording underneath the sump.



The engine is coming out. It's then going back to Dave Andrews who rebuilt it. His reputation is very good. He says if he finds any point of failure that could be his doing, it will get sorted.
If he doesn't know the cause of the issue, I am back at Square One.
I want to take one step at a time but I am researching what else could go in it's place.......

These posts may sound a bit gloomy but I am actually totally energised about the car. I know I am only a few steps away, I just need the final push.

The other issue to resolve is the steering rack. The current turning circle of the car means that I couldn't get around the hairpin up the hill at RRG even if the engine is sorted.

The next 6 months may be expensive, but the end result will be worth it.

[elmotheewokking]

Sounds like something loose flapping about to my ear...
Anyway, yes, keep the faith, it'll be fantastic when done.

[yoeddynz]

I love this car but keep thinking 'hmmmm, a little 13B turbo would squeeze nicely into that and with some fettling would have an easy 300 bhp plus.

Or a lovely 4agte or 4agze

Glad its coming right for you though.

[dalla]

Amazing read, lovely car. Really hope you get it sorted.

[alolympic]

Thanks Guys!

To be honest, I am open to all engine options at the moment.
I've always wanted to keep the car as light as possible, which is one of the major attractions with the K series.
Provided the bhp/tonne goes in the right direction I'd be happy going with more reliable power from something heavier though.

There is a Phase 2 Olympic that was rebuilt with a Scorpio Cosworth V6, not sure how much chopping was involved though...

[will]

Look forward to seeing this at Prescot this year. Has a bike lump been considered if the motor ends up getting swapped out?

[yoeddynz]

Well if you want lightweight don't go rotary. As much as I like them and they are small and easy to fit they are quite hefty at around 120kgs all up. A nice modern all alloy engine with a turbo would be a cool way to go- something that doesnt have the little weak links these K series seem to have.

Or as above ^ .. a bike engine!!! with seqential shifting. hmmmmm yummy.

How heavy is this car? have you weighed it?

[stealthstylz]

I would say s2000 engine and box would suit this car to the ground

[alolympic]

I haven't weighed the car yet.
The Phase 1 is heavier than the Phase 2, and the bodywork mods, combined with the heavier BMW trailing arms will add some weight.
It should be less than 800kgs as it sits now though.

120kgs for the rotary isn' too bad. A Zetec or XE is heavier I believe.
An S2000 engine is pretty tall and actually damn heavy.
The issue with changing from the K is the amount of work, almost like starting from scratch again.
A 2.3 Duratec on TB's would seem to be a good choice, just too many £££'s.

Anyway, next post will be about the seats as a distraction. I have ideas......

[Sven]

Now this is pure ignorant speculation on my part so value it for as much as it costs you. I wonder if you have an oiling problem in the engine. The loud ticking symptom made me think you might. I have an MX5 and it go low on oil once and the engine ticked pretty loudly from the cam lifters which probably weren't filling with oil. Not even sure if the K series has hydraulic lifters.

I'm glad you're committed to the car, it's a testament to your passion for it. If you dig around online (I did once) you will find spreadsheets or calculators for working out what M/C size you need for your braking system and pedal ratio. Someone mentioned Staniforths book, I think he's right that there's a section for doing the calculations for a braking system, albeit unassisted.

-Steve