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Jan 21, 2011 12:45:43 GMT
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not meaning to scare anyone... www.out-law.com/page-11669"UK will copy EU laws directly onto UK statute books to cut down red tape" fair enough this is business law, but if it "works" thenother areas may well adopt
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Jan 21, 2011 12:51:15 GMT
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That will be fine, if it's not costing the Govt any money. You can bet they will be all over new legislation like a rash if they are going to loose out.
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kenb
Part of things
![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star.png)
Posts: 604
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Jan 21, 2011 12:58:31 GMT
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I don't have any figures to back this up mind its only what i can gleen from others and the what you see on the net. But Britain has to have the largest classic car/older car movement in Europe. Every weekend in summer you see hundreds of classic vehicles of all types on the move. Especially it seems from the VW clubs!! The whole scene is massive. I also saw some years back the government said that Britain had a much much large number of people( compared to the rest of Europe) owning older cars down to social reasons. IE more people on the bread line etc. Whilst we have to keep an eye on all this new stuff and i'm NOT saying ignore it, I think it will be an incredibly brave government to try and enforce any kind of restrictive vehicle use on the general public in th UK. Especially if it there would be any loss of revenue to them. Not only that, the only real way to enforce it here is by the black box in your car, and I think we are a still good few years from that, due to the expense of installing the road side equipment. Its already been on the news this week, Lincolnshire has a 300 million pound backlog of road repairs from the last two winters damage. It was saying it can never ever catch up due to the current way of funding. So unless the EU stumps up the cash for this big brother approach...
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`state
Yorkshire and The Humber
Posts: 1,215
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Jan 21, 2011 13:43:42 GMT
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I mentioned this on the mk2 cav forum the other day.First reply was "I`ll worry about it when it happens". To be honest most people just cant be bothered to do anything or just don't think it will happen to them. They`ll be the people moaning the loudest once our freedom has being taken from us.
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Look at all the plastic people who live without a care.Try to sit with me around my table,but never bring a chair.
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Jan 21, 2011 13:44:24 GMT
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In parts of Europe it is enforced by you having to send off an application BEFORE you venture out and have to list your route by the shortest way there and back again. So simply, no confirmation letter of journey if pulled then you are already in trouble.
The POSSIBLE restriction on mileage is not the only issue , it is the far reaching implications of FIVAs regs becoming the EU standard for judgement of Historic status. As we already know EU law overrides National Law so if their ruling came into place it would mean that the 8 points system would cease to exist so effectively banning modified Historic cars with anything other than period mods.
We have other info either in an early unverifiable state that would become worse than current if this were brought into law.
Part of the trouble is that we know things , also about application of rules, that it would be very unwise to put onto the WWW that would truly show the problems facing us .
For instance a recent change in import duties on Historic vehicles looks at first glance to be beneficial but ACE are already being contacted with the downside from those experiencing troubles due to it. The change was brought about by dealers in this country insisting on being treated the same as other EU States and , for this aspect, the FIVA regs have been put in place and have created the issues we foresee for a much wider scene than just imports.
We ( ACE) having nothing to gain from this, we aren't paid ,we don't take donations or subscriptions. All we stand to gain is enemies as so many like to shoot the messenger. It's run by a floating group of 12 who are passionate about OUR hobby and it's continuation and that passion goes beyond ranting on forums. Ask yourself a simple question ...what does ACE stand to gain from bringing these issues to light ?
It is those who are fighting for their particular corner of car ownership only that are creating many problems and backing those those vehicles do not comply with their narrow remit into a corner.
I could personally walk away and all the proposed changes wouldn't affect me one single iota because I am fully prepared to, and do , play the game and build as requested. However for many that won't be an option and being caught in existing legislation, let alone by proposed legislation, leaves them with exepensive garage ornament.
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Jan 21, 2011 13:48:04 GMT
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You have to make your minds up , do you want to be Jean Luc or not ? I don't have a problem giving my support Ace..... my problem is that I don't know exactly what and who I'm supposed to be opposing. I know that I have 17 pages on this thread of speculation as to what may or what may not be on the horizon and who may or who may not be behind it all. I also know that you are privvy to information that we are not and that you will be making an announcement shortly. All I'm saying is that I will wait to hear the facts over the speculation before making any decision.
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Last Edit: Jan 21, 2011 14:32:20 GMT by arrocuda
'71 Arrocuda.... '71 Sunbeam Rapier Turbo (The Grim Rapier).... '63 Hymek D7076..... Audi GT5S
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Jan 21, 2011 14:25:33 GMT
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Once again I am reading "possible" and "parts of Europe". If EU law overrides National Law shouldn't we already have rolling exemption?
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Jan 21, 2011 18:45:52 GMT
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Ok Fred, I actually have a 'possible' that became a definite and carried part of the consequences we suspected ( we will not publicly post the rest of our concerns until it is proven to be happening ) . It is also related to the very point of this original post.
Several importers of Historic vehicles into this country felt disadvantaged over their EU counterparts. This was due to the classification of Historic. GB had a situation where pre '50 vehicles only ad a zero rate of duty whilst EU enjoyed zero rate all the way up to the rolling 30 year exemption for Historic ( the FIVA definition ).
They won their case and there is now zero rate dutyfro ALL Historics . Everyone pleased with themselves and lots of back slapping.
However , as you pointed out the Governement didn't like losing money so consequently they are ensuring that ALL the Historic imports meet the FIVA definitions for Historic ie not modified.
ACE had its first contact from someone who had fallen foul importing a vehicle that is modified and has been spotted.
This has effectively rendered a £15,000 vehicle valueless as it can't go for BIVA , it has to go for NIVA ( stricter test) and the glass spec issues mean it cannot pass either.
We have another piece of info that follows along these lines and will add to outside pressure for limited mileage regulations. When we have the links we will add them to the ACE site
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Jan 21, 2011 18:53:25 GMT
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Arrocuda, by the very nature of what we (ACE) do much can only be INFORMED speculation, when it becomes hard facts it would be too late to do anything.
If you follow the info as it is posted on the ACE site you will see a progression of information and actuality. We published info re banning of chip tuning in Germany 2 yeras ago,next year they will be checking for such items in the new MOT
What we are seeking to do with the fIVA regulations is to make the MEPs aware of a contrary opinion before they accept the facts as presented by FIVA as unchallenged and allow them to become Statute, with all future legislation using that as the basis of the definition of Historic. it won't matter what contray opinion anyone holds , unless 'we' let MEPS . MPs know now then that will become facts .
The only thing that is a 'maybe ' in the scenario is the limited mileage scenario ( and as the post above we have more info to suggest that will be pressed for) . If the FIVA regulations are stopped now then the possibility of limited milage restrictions will receed.
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Jan 21, 2011 19:18:28 GMT
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ok. so what do we do?
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Jan 21, 2011 20:05:56 GMT
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Do you realise just how much money will be lost in road tax if it came in even tomorrow? It's already another NINE year's worth of vehicles instantly not paying road tax. I would like to be that's a hell of a lot more than what they loose in import tax. There's no way the govt will accept that without a fight.
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Jan 21, 2011 21:09:50 GMT
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YES They would! Our governement. No matter what one it is. Incase you hadnt noticed seems to be very good at bending over and taking it up the ![](http://i25.tinypic.com/2005o2q.jpg) from everyone else! Even if we totally and utterly sh*t out . I.e the amount of money LEAVING this country every month/year whatever and going into the EU that we see hardly any of. Then we get a load of EU directives saying we have to accept loads of EU state scroungers. So they come over and take more money. The EU equality laws that say we cant turn away all the indian and african immigrants even though the country is more than full as it is. ![::)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/eyesroll.png) Then theres all the companys that have fallen fowl of EU laws in relation to the environment. This country produces sweet FA now . And its only getting worse and worse with each new strangling law coming out of brussels. Sitting back and waiting to see what might happen is a typical british CBA attitude.
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Last Edit: Jan 21, 2011 21:14:20 GMT by retrowagen1234
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Jan 21, 2011 21:22:39 GMT
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So how come we don't still have the rolling exemption then? My point is, when the govt want to do it, they will. If they don't like it, it doesn't happen.
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Jan 22, 2011 13:12:57 GMT
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Arrocuda, by the very nature of what we (ACE) do much can only be INFORMED speculation, when it becomes hard facts it would be too late to do anything. Take your point Kev ..... I guess it's the nature of the beast that until it gets up close it's hard to tell whether its spotted or striped but now I have a better understanding as to the situation it does change my stance a little. We can forget the we're all in it together' idea as the movement is already divided. The rivet counters with the 'all original' show cars will be pushing for the EU policy to be implemented in full whilst the modders & retro daily enthusiasts will be campaigning for the status quo. Personally I think I know what will happen with this but I intend to write to my MP (Lib Dem') to find out where he stands on the issue. I think the government will invoke the non retrospective exemption like they did with the tax on 4 x 4's and they do with emissions on 'historic vehicles'. Something along the lines of..... if your car is already classed as 'historic vehicle' on the V5 then it's exempt but any new applications for HV status (pre '72 or within the rolling period) will require inspection at your expense. The fee will probably be at BIVA rates so as to put off as many people as possible, carried out by BIVA staff who spend a few hours looking for mods to snag you on. This way most modding enthusiasts will continue to pay the tax in order to keep them off their case. Maybe the 'I'll pay the tax... just stay off my case' Brigade will win out after all.... it's just that there won't be a box to tick..... just cheques to keep writing. Might make more sense for us to campaign as disgruntled citizens rather than retro enthusiasts on the basis of..... you ought to be ashamed of yourselves giving tax breaks to car nuts when the old folks and the disabled are being squeezed... blah blah blah ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) I'll report back when I get a response!
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Last Edit: Jan 22, 2011 13:14:47 GMT by arrocuda
'71 Arrocuda.... '71 Sunbeam Rapier Turbo (The Grim Rapier).... '63 Hymek D7076..... Audi GT5S
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Jan 22, 2011 13:29:11 GMT
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So how come we don't still have the rolling exemption then? My point is, when the govt want to do it, they will. If they don't like it, it doesn't happen. This was proved to be true only 3 days ago when the government announced that they would give the right to prisoners to vote.... but only to those people jailed for up to 12 months.... those with longer sentences won't get it. This is in contradiction with the EU court of human rights that said that ALL prisoners must have it. Also don't forget that we still have sovereignty over all matters regarding taxation so there's nothing that the EU could do if they said that they were doing away with the Historic Vehicle Tax exemption altogether. So..... Be careful what you wish for!
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'71 Arrocuda.... '71 Sunbeam Rapier Turbo (The Grim Rapier).... '63 Hymek D7076..... Audi GT5S
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Jan 22, 2011 13:57:24 GMT
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If FIVAs definition becomes the standard and vehicle s over 30 yeras old automatically become Historic you can keep it standard but be prepared for limited milage restrictions . Modifying outside the points system would be required to create a new vehicle to go for BIVA to remove it from Historic status. Obviously, the way to get around the annual mileage restriction is to own more classics! ;D "Honey - 1500km per year isn't enough, I need to buy at least another four classic cars."
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1995 Range Rover 4.0 1995 BMW 320i Saloon 1989 BMW 325i Touring 1991 Mercedes 300TE-24 1991 Mercedes 190e 1970 Sunbeam Imp Sport
1966 Valiant 200 Custom 1964 Ford Fairlane 500 Station Wagon
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Jan 22, 2011 14:31:22 GMT
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Arrocuda, whilst it is good to alert our MPs to concerns primarily it is your MEP that you need to contact, by the time your MP can do anything about it the regs will already be EU law. By stopping it coming into law, or at the very least delaying it while they have consulations , we gain breathing space and maintain the status quo. I'd rather not sign away my rights to use a car when and where I want for £205 per year ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) Again, I don't currently own a Historic having sold my last one early last year so on a personal level these regs wouldn't affect me either, doesn't stop me seeing it as unfair and wanting to stop it affecting the modified scene in all its many forms:)
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Jan 22, 2011 14:43:59 GMT
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Arrocuda, just run through some figures we have on file , making Historics pay tax would raise almost £63 million a year (306990 registered as Historic last January )
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Jan 22, 2011 15:04:31 GMT
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Arrocuda, just run through some figures we have on file , making Historics pay tax would raise almost £63 million a year (306990 registered as Historic last January ) Are those all taxed though, or does that also include those on a SORN? Also, in practice, I suspect that many that are taxed all year round are still summer use only cars, so if road tax were to require payment, they would end up on 6 month discs.
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Jan 22, 2011 17:22:46 GMT
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...MEANWHILE... This month's Retro Cars has a mention in the news pages of the new 2012 MOT regulations (not wanting to take this off topic, but bear with me). They highlight some of the main implications of the new MOT, and this is what they say on the ECU issue: "...(T)here are three main areas the government is keen to address. The first is changes to your car's ECU, including remaps. With the government now determining tax brackets on emissions, performance-enhancing ECU changes, which usually increase emissions, obviously throw a spanner in the works. This will obviously not effect retro cars" (My emphasis) As if no retro cars, or cars that will soon be considered retro, have ECUs ![::)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/eyesroll.png) . Or because it's outside of their scene it's not worth worrying about. I agree with Dez, it worries me deeply how little magazines seem to either be aware of or willing to mention these issues. My (rhetorical) question is, will it have implications for classic insurance? Such as cars having to meet the definition of historic to qualify for it, limited mileage policies as standard, etc. The ECU issue shouldn't effect any cars older than 2001 model year as that is when they switched to VED based on emissions.
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1995 Range Rover 4.0 1995 BMW 320i Saloon 1989 BMW 325i Touring 1991 Mercedes 300TE-24 1991 Mercedes 190e 1970 Sunbeam Imp Sport
1966 Valiant 200 Custom 1964 Ford Fairlane 500 Station Wagon
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