Removing rust and welding - top down or bottom up?

[duncanmartin]

Hi

Clearly the correct way to proceed with my Lancia project is to strip the shell of engine+box, screen, interior, dashboard, electrics, suspension etc (basically everything) and then put it on a jig or a roller and sort the shell out bit by bit before painting and re-assembling. However, I don't have the space to put all that excess stuff, (or the skills/tools to take it apart and put it back together again) so I need to weld in a load of new metal with most of those bits in situ (I have stripped the interior - it's in the loft!).

The question I have it whether to start with the floor and sills, and work my way up, or to start at the top (roll over hoop) and work my way down.

If I start with the sills and floor, then I should have a solid base, and I'll be able to jack the car up and get underneath properly (I can't now as it creaks and cracks alarmingly). I could also sort out the back brakes (which are bound on so tight that moving it is a basically impossible without skates), meaning I could put it on ramps if I wanted. But, doing it this way means that when I come to do the roof and the inner wing, I'm going to be creating a large amount of rusty mess, and some of that will end up sitting on/in my lovely new sills, potentially causing further rust in the not too distant future.
If I do the roof and inner wings first then I will be working on a car that isn't as rigid as it ought to be, and I'm worried about introducing distortion. I'm also concerned that I'll do a huge amount of work, then get further down and realise that the shell is basically knackered and isn't rescuable (without contracting out at large expense). Plus, obviously there is the potential for throwing rusty particles upwards when I cut the sills out...

What do you think? And what's the best way to try to keep it clean?

Thanks
Duncan


Have some pictures of lovely rust:

rusty floor pan by duncancmartin, on Flickr

Rust hole in roll bar/roof by duncancmartin, on Flickr

Hole in inner sill (as viewed down through inner wing) by duncancmartin, on Flickr

And of what it should look like, and hopefully will again one day:

Beta roof off. by duncancmartin, on Flickr

[goldnrust]

First off good work on deciding to do the welding marathon and not give up on the car just yet

Are you keeping the car in a garage or doing this on the driveway? If its in the garage you could go wild with the wire wheel on a grinder and get all the rust and filler out of the way and you'll have a better idea of the general condition of the shell which might help make where to start more obvious. Obviously if its on the drive that's not really a practical idea as it'll expose too much metal to the elements.

When I did my rx7, and similarly didn't have the space to strip the car completely bare, I worked on it a corner at a time. I always like finding something easy to get my eye back in with the welder and give myself a confidence boost, after that I was able to strip one corner of the car at a time then I'd be able to see just how far the rust went there, before attacking it in which ever way made the welding easiest. Then once the corner was done I'd put all the parts back on and more round the car. I didn't need much space to store the parts I took off, in fact many could be stored inside the car, and it made the welding feel less insurmountable. Everytime I looked at it and though 'I'll never finish this' I just walked round and looked at one of the completed corners for a bit.

Good luck

[duncanmartin]

It's in the garage. I could just attack it all over, but I suspect I'll just end up with a bunch of bigger holes!
Maybe that's the best way - removing rust can't do any harm. :-)

[goldnrust]

At least that way you know where you are. It'll feel a bit brutal, but there's something mentally quite nice about knowing this is as bad as it gets and from here its all new metal going in

[duncanmartin]

Pattern panels are hard to get, so the only issue I might have is removing so much metal that I find it hard to create new pieces to weld in!
I'll give it a go on the weekend and post more pictures of holes where the ought to be metal!

[sowen]

I would say if you can't jack it up on each corner without it twisting/breaking further, it would probably be a good idea to bolt/weld some braces into the shell to hold it square first, then you can dive in wherever without fear of it breaking in two.

[dodgerover]

If the sills are coming off and the floors etc are rotten make sure to brace it up well before hand, you really really don't want to have cut it off and start again or to modify the doors to get them to shut again *, angle iron tacked into place will do the job - it doesn't have to be anything fancy.

* Yep have seen this done on a MGB...

[duncanmartin]

As soon as I can get the doors off, I'll brace the gap. I would have done that before cutting the sills off anyway, but best to do it sooner rather than later. Thanks for reminding me.

[Oldbus]

Hi Duncan,

if it was mine i´d do one side at a time, starting with the sills and floor.

When you weld in your bracing leave yourself enough room to work around it, there´s nothing worse than trying to fit new sills/floor and you can´t get in with the angle grinder because the bracing is in the way.

I´d weld the bracing in with the doors fitted, with the car standing on its wheels i´d set up the door gaps first, brace both sides (especially as it´s a soft top) and then get stuck into one side.

It´s a lot more work but only tack the panels into place, refit the door and drop it back down on the floor again and check the gaps again before final welding, basically you´ll end up making the sills fit the doors.

Hope that helps and good luck with the restoration.

Dave

[duncanmartin]

Hi Dave
That does help, except the refitting doors bit - my garage isn't wide enough for me to be able to open the doors enough to get the bolts in! I don't fancy towing it out of the garage with the sills only tacked on to check the door gaps (the fuel tank is on the bonnet and it wasn't running properly before I removed it!).
I need to strip more of the interior out before I can weld the bracing in, so that's the first thing to do.
Thinking about bracing - I figured I'd just use some angle. I'll need to get it from the steel stockholder - is there any specific spec/size I need to ask for? I tend to show up and ask for "some of x", and they offer me about 10 choices that I have no idea what they mean!
Cheers
Duncan

[dodgerover]

May 22, 2013 20:43:05 GMT duncanmartin said:

Thinking about bracing - I figured I'd just use some angle. I'll need to get it from the steel stockholder - is there any specific spec/size I need to ask for? I tend to show up and ask for "some of x", and they offer me about 10 choices that I have no idea what they mean!
Cheers
Duncan

Erm being tight I usually turn up and say I want some angle can i look through the offcuts and scrap Exact dimensions aren't really going to matter as long as its sturdy enough not to flex once its in place I'de guess an inch and a half by inch and a half in a decent thickness should be ok

[Oldbus]

As you have to buy it anyway i´d go for box section and not angle iron mate.

It doesn´t have to be heavy duty either, 1" is enough. When i´ve needed bracing in the past i´ve used 40mm but that was only because the company i bought it off had loads of it going spare.

[vaughant]

I'd seriously be considering stripping that to the bare bones and paying for storage somewhere cos it could be hiding all manner of gremlins.
Did this the wrong way round with my cossie and after painting it all found all the inner floors and sills were rotten so it was a waste of time.
Bought another shell in the end which needed no welding just swapping all the bits in.
I understand that's difficult on such a rare car as yours but you'll kick yourself if you strip it out gradually and find it was a waste of time after you started.
Plus it would be way easier to of on a roll over jig.

[duncanmartin]

I understand that's the best way to do it. But it's taken me 3 years to get this far (with a garage, I've owned it 8 years!) - if I strip it completely, I don't think I'd do any welding on it until about 2015!

[1eighteen]

Hi Duncan,

I had a similar predicament with my BMW 02. I have stripped it as far as I can on my drive, the only thing left now, is the engine and subframes. But storage of the stuff is a pain.

I think the basic rule of thumb is to strip a car to the shell, is that you need enough space to store two cars. If you have the outdoor space, it would be more cost effective to buy a 8x4' shed for the garden and store stuff in there. I pay £100 p/m for a 20' container, but I have another 02 in need of work, so had no option to get a large storage solution.

My car is in a worse state, so my plans are to strip back to the metal and start from scratch, as already said, I find stripping things back to their worst possible state and going on from there is very liberating and you know it's all getting better from then on.

I would do as suggested, brace the car back to front and side to side whilst it is sat on the floor before engine removal and if I would start at the bottom and work my way up.

Good luck with it no matter what you do, great looking car.

Wayne

[bobblegut]

The problem the O/P has is that he lives in Oxfordshire ! A no go for a workshop/garage/barn unless you pay £500 a month !

[1eighteen]

Jul 3, 2014 12:46:47 GMT bobblegut said:

The problem the O/P has is that he lives in Oxfordshire ! A no go for a workshop/garage/barn unless you pay £500 a month !

Yeh, That's a problem.  Personally, I would opt for the shed idea, if like I said, you have enough space ?  £300 would buy a decent enough shed on Fleabay for storage and by the sound of it, would pay for itself in a month.