Selling 2nd hand parts illegal?

[nelliem]

I share a lockup with a few other guys and in the last few months we have attracted the attention of the local council licensing guy.
To begin with he was convinced that we were breaking cars as a business and was basically out to get us. I have since shown him that this is not the case and we are just playing with our own cars.
One thing that has come up however is that he tells me that the selling of any parts that we have removed from any vehicle is illegal without a dismantlers license.
I gave him the scenario that I bought a car with an aftermarket head unit which I replaced with a standard one and then sold the unit that came in the car. No - that's illegal was the reply!
Does anyone have any experience of this? It's apparently due to recent changes to gov't legislation but I'm finding it hard to swallow as it seems a bit over the top and would make all swap meets, autojumbles and the like illegal too.
I've tried talking to him about this but he just gets stroppy and I don't want to make things worse than they are, oh - he is the head of his dept too so nowhere to go on that one.

[haggis]

Thats a complete load of....

A typical council unemployable jobsworth

Arrest everybody on preloved, gumtree, ebay, adtrader, autojumbles.

he has no evidence so don't worry about it

[joem83]

Sounds like someone that wanted to be a police officer but wasn't clever/fit enough.

[steveo3002]

maybe more a case of not allwed from council lock up?

tell em what they want to hear tbh

[Foxy]

He sounds like a swiss army knife without the benefits.
IE he's a tool, with the propensity to be a lot of tools in one.

[Battles]

Tell him to prosecute you or eff-off. Actually, don't do that...
Realistically, they won't prosecute you but they might be entitled to tell you to stop working from the place you're working from. It will all come down to local by-laws and enforcement arrangements.

Strictly speaking, the councils can stop you from working on motors (or DIY and renovations) at your own house if there are loads of complaints and their investigations find that you're working too late into the evening or making excessive noise.

Someone has obviously complained. Don't tell him to eff-off, ask him how you can work in compliance with the law.
If he says you need a permit, ask him to get you the form. As him what laws or local by-laws you're breaking. Play ball with him but continue doing what you're doing until you get an official order on paper, properly served by a council official, demanding that you stop.

The guy is probably under pressure to justify his time to his boss so he's probably described you as a massive, possibly criminal car-ringing operation so he can assign lots of time to it.

Mar 17, 2015 14:47:13 GMT steveo3002 said:

maybe more a case of not allwed from council lock up?

That's a good point, is it a council owned lock up?

[nelliem]

It's a privately rented commercial premises but not being used for commercial purposes.
He tells me that the letter of the law is now that if you are dismantling vehicles and selling parts on any level you need a license. This is a national law not a local bylaw. We wouldn't get a license without spending thousands to comply with H+S etc which would kill it for all of us.
He has also said that they are in the process of going after ebay sellers, gumtree etc but only ones operating in their area.

[nelliem]

Mar 17, 2015 14:50:12 GMT Foxy said:

He sounds like a swiss army knife without the benefits.
IE he's a tool, with the propensity to be a lot of tools in one.

Unfortunately a tool who can shut us down so i have to be very careful.

[EmDee]

Mar 17, 2015 15:08:33 GMT nelliem said:

He has also said that they are in the process of going after ebay sellers, gumtree etc but only ones operating in their area.

Provided you are paying tax on your income (over the threshold), there is nothing that they can charge you with. Putting your old toot up for sale to make space in the garage is your right and if he wants to take that away I think you should inform the Daily Mail.

I don't think you should take any advice from me though as I am not particularly good at dealing with these situations. I would laugh in his face.

[nelliem]

As far as I can make out it is the act of removing it from the car that is the issue. If you give it away or use it on another car that's fine but you can't sell it.

[Battles]

Mar 17, 2015 15:41:38 GMT nelliem said:

As far as I can make out it is the act of removing it from the car that is the issue. If you give it away or use it on another car that's fine but you can't sell it.

Put simply, that's a load of toss. It suggests that it's all about detecting illegal earnings of any kind rather than being an H&S or environmental or noise abatement matter.
I wonder if HMRC are using local councils to do preliminary investigations for them?

Mar 17, 2015 15:24:34 GMT EmDee said:

Mar 17, 2015 15:08:33 GMT nelliem said:

He has also said that they are in the process of going after ebay sellers, gumtree etc but only ones operating in their area.

Provided you are paying tax on your income (over the threshold), there is nothing that they can charge you with.

Undeclared income, even if it's under the threshold, is still potentially troublesome even if it's just the hassle of an HMRC investigation.
I recommend to anyone who does a bit of tinkering with anything (cars, bikes, PCs, boilers, whatever) that there's any money or non-financial benefit in to register with HMRC as self employed and pay the extra stamp. It's buttons a week and is a get out of jail free card for loads of stuff, especially with jobsworths like this who might try and report you to HMRC if they can't get you on anything else.
Plus, being self employed means that lots of hobby-type stuff can be claimed as expenses and if you do it right you can run your self employed business as a loss and get money back from your PAYE taxed job (if you have one).
Enough tax avoidance, I don't need The Guardian investigating me...

nelliem - try not to worry too much. He's basically just noising you up. Unless you've been done for this before or there's something you're not telling us then there's nothing he can do.
Get his name, get his Manager's name and ask your Councillor to find out what you need to do to be compliant.
If there are houses nearby, or anyone who might complain, go and chap the door and just say that the council are responding to a complaint and you want to try and smooth things out if you can.

[retroade]

If you want to be watertight ask him to declare exactly what law you're breaking and in which terms and get it in writing if possible. If he can't answer this question he's unable to pursue any potential case at which point feel free to laugh in his face and tell him to foxtrot oscar!

Take this info to either Citizens Advice or find a solicitor who gives a free initial 30 mins consultation and you'll know exactly where you stand. Knowledge is power in these situations. Citizens Advice are free and excellent, they will have probably had other complaints about this joker.

If all else fails stick an air line up his trouserleg like on Mutiny on the Buses.

Defo sounds like a failed plod living out his Hill Street Blues fantasy, in his mind you're a bunch of felonious ringers until you can prove otherwise.

[MiataMark]

Mar 17, 2015 16:02:41 GMT Battles said:

I recommend to anyone who does a bit of tinkering with anything (cars, bikes, PCs, boilers, whatever) that there's any money or non-financial benefit in to register with HMRC as self employed and pay the extra stamp. It's buttons a week and is a get out of jail free card for loads of stuff, especially with jobsworths like this who might try and report you to HMRC if they can't get you on anything else.
Plus, being self employed means that lots of hobby-type stuff can be claimed as expenses and if you do it right you can run your self employed business as a loss and get money back from your PAYE taxed job (if you have one).

Good advice.

If you're paying NI through your 'normal' job you can register for self-employed and then get an exemption so you don't pay. It's worth speaking to HMRC they are helpful. I did this in the past when I did some part-time photography, yes you can run selff employed at a loss alongdie your regular employment but I think they may have clamped down on this a bit. I'm no expert so take my advice with a pinch of salt.

[HmmDK]

IMAO

call the office and see if you get the same information there (maybe from a couple of diffrent employees) also ask for some documentation so you can get smart on the rules yourself 8)

[compass]

I`m not sure what his problem is; the fact you are breaking the cars, or selling the items?

If it`s with the breaking cars, he (unfortunately), is correct.....although there is a loophole. It`s all to do with waste chemicals, oil, gas etc etc. You need a licence, but also need to abide by the rules set out by the environmental agency. This is a minefield, however they are very good to deal with and will do what they can to help you......just don`t disclose where you`re based right now

The loophole, if it still exists, is to get the car depolluted at a scrap yard before taking it apart. By doing this, you`re then "working on" or "playing with" scrap metal, not a vehicle with oil etc to dispose of. If memory serves me correctly, you`re allowed two cars at any one time like this.

If his problem is that you`re selling the parts, as far as I know, that`s nothing to do with the council.

[8bitash]

If you're just playing with your own cars and not breaking them its not an issue. end of story really. You only have to inform HMRC if you are buying items to sell on for a profit.

[Foxy]

But surely if you buy a car, you inherently own all the parts of said vehicle and they are yours to sell.
You can buy a pc and remove and sell the mother board, no?

[nelliem]

He is not, as far as I know interested in any monetary or tax implications.
As he states it if we are selling any parts then we become a business, if we are a business then we need to be licensed to dismantle cars with all the other requirements that that involves.
There is an exemption for people in our situation which as Compass points out would allow us 2 depolluted cars on the site at any 1 time. He hasn't actually mentioned this at all.
I think that what I have found out is that , in our case, he is right. It's a pain in the but I would rather stop selling the few bits that we have done to keep the unit rather than go down the environmental compliance route with licences etc as we would need to spend a lot to get up to spec.
Am I right in thinking that as a non commercial setup we don't need to comply with the stricter EH rules, bunded storage areas etc?

[nelliem]

Mar 17, 2015 16:43:23 GMT 8bitash said:

If you're just playing with your own cars and not breaking them its not an issue. end of story really. You only have to inform HMRC if you are buying items to sell on for a profit.

Essentially it in a nutshell however it does mean that none of us can sell any bits at all.

[8bitash]

You only become a business when you buy those parts/car to sell on for a profit.