Van tyres on cars

[madmog]

I want to keep the standard hubcaps on my W114 but have wider wheels. Unfortunately the standard wheel is 14" which severely limits the availability of wider tyres.

The only ones I can find are van tyres, which are high profile (okay by me), Q rated to 100mph (also okay by me) but specified as van tyres.

So the question is, are van tyres dangerous, uncomfortable, illegal or in any way problematic if fitted on a car?

I can find warnings about not fitting car tyres on vans but not the other way round.

There is a 15" version of the hubcap that was fitted on 15" wheels on ambulances, some police cars and the legendary W100 dictator car but these cost 300€ each!! Even if I could stomach that cost, they are too easy to pull off a wheel.

So I suppose a second question, does anyone know a cheaper source of hubcaps like these but for 15" wheels?

Or, has anyone successfully fitted the 14" caps with 15" trim rings on a 15" wheel?

Thanks

[gazz81]

I thought van rated tyres were more about being safely able to cope with heavy loads, so I can't see a problem with them being on a car?
Interestingly, I have Alfa Romeo alloys on my Peugeot Expert with car tyres and never had an mot issue.

[avg]

My late father used van tyres on his 64 Cevy Impala and they rode a lot better than the car tyres

[nomad]

^ like gazz, I think it's to do with overloading ( car tyres on vans = possible problem, no problem with van tyres on cars)

[madmog]

Brilliant, ta

[oakesy]

Yes, it's to do with the loading. Van tyres are much stiffer so aren't good for a car (I guess they suited the Impala because it's so heavy?)
Less of an issue, but you need to tell your insurance because the speed rating is different to what was fitted from the factory. There have been several instances where they haven't paid out because of it.

[madmog]

Hmm thanks Oakesy, food for thought.

I might have a chat with a few insurance companies to see what loading they add to the premium.

I'm planning to keep my car a long time and am thinking of tyre availability going into the future. The 14" solution involves banding wheels and picking the wider profile that has lots of options to choose from (oponeo works well for this, shows how many tyres of a particular profile they have)

15" would give more tyre choice but the hubcaps are expensive. €1200 for 4 hubcaps that could be pulled off by freelance scrap metal collectors in Tescos is not appealing to me.

I'm not mad about sticking on some later merc alloys as I really like the original look. That said, the 114/115s can take some massive wheels.

[ChasR]

I think akku had commercial tyres on one of his Yank tanks. I seem to recall he said that the ride was harder than normal car tyres.

Speed ratings are something to keep in mind, but then again some winter wheels never had the speediest ratings on them...

[93fxdl]

Someone got a bargain with this then.
m.ebay.co.uk/itm/181680486698?rmvSB=true&ul_ref=http%3A%2F%2Frover.ebay.com%3A443%2Frover%2F1%2F710-53481-19255-0%2F1%3Fcampid%3D5337630155%26customid%3D%26toolid%3D10018%26mpre%3Dhttp%253a%252f%252fwww.ebay.co.uk%252fitm%252fclassic-mercedes-steel-wheel-trim-cover-hub-cap-sl-w123-w114-15-blue-pagoda-%252f181680486698%26srcrot%3D710-53481-19255-0%26rvr_id%3D835598036056&_mwBanner=1
Ttfn Glenn

[Dez]

they didnt, thats a standard cap for a 14" wheel. a 14" wheel measure 15" diameter overall. i wish i could get that much for a bashed up stock trim, ive got enough of them!


as for the tyres, theyll fit, but the ride will likely be harsher (not really an issue in a merc) and grip will be reduced/breakaway through loss of traction more abrupt due to the stiffer sidewalls. theyll tend to be made of harder compounds so they last longer on high milage vehicles too.

[Deleted]

Van tyres have stiffer side walls so you may notice a difference in handling and yes you will have to inform you insurance Co due to that and the much lower speed rating, speed ratings are not all about top speed but how warm a tyre will get over prolonged distances which effects the handling.

[igor]

I ran van tyres on both a BMC 1300 and a Honda Civic for many years with no problems at all. You may experience slightly less grip in the wet due to the harder compound but if you drive accordingly it shouldn't become an issue.

[ChasR]

May I ask what size of tyre you have fitted? If it is 185R14 then yes they are bloody pricey! In the Stag world people used to fit 185/70R14 to get around the issue (but the wheels are significantly smaller with the wheels looking a little lost in the arches) or with 195/70R14s which are very similar to 185R14s.

[pcj]

Morning Chas...hopefully will see you at Motofest assuming my remaining bits (brake pads and oil filter) arrive today as promised (and even as we type UPS have just landed the oil filter). What machinery are you bringing this year? If we get there we'll be in A12 SXJ so look out for us.

Guys and gals (as surely we have some lady members in this day and age) ref this problem with tyres: Firstly it is not illegal to fit tyres of lower recommended speed rating to your vehicle, provided they exceed the UK's 70 mph speed limit. Your insurance company however will want to know about it and you might however ask yourself just how much "reserve" that minimum rated tyre has as it gets a bit older. Personally I'll go with a somewhat higher speed rating whose reserves I'll never (hopefully) have to call on.

Now most of us (oldies) have at some time driven a vehicle with the "wrong" tyres either because we we're a little short of the readies at the time or the thing came with the wierdies fitted and we hadn't yet got round to changing them. In most cases we've never had a problem because we've either been lucky, or, despite the fact we could give Derek Bell a run for his money down our local strip, we've never actually driven those "wrong 'uns" to the point where they bit us. So it passes into urban myth with a "Hey man, it's not really a problem, did it for years, piece of p***".

As mentioned by earlier posters you WILL have to negotiate this one (speed rating and van tyre) with your insurance company. Keeping them in ignorance is going to see you out there paddling your own canoe in a very lonely ocean come claim time. In all probability they won't be too fazed by the idea, so long as you can show you've done your homework e.g.the tyres are good re grip etc as per the modern European "tests" and you're not fitting Teflon grippers just to save money. Remember one of the first things the police check after a crash is tyres! So informing your insurer at the start of tyre choice and getting acceptance removes the get-out clause that would otherwise be hanging over you in the event of a claim.

Yes, it's a bloody chore. Just been there as "Bagheera" was up for new front tyres. Original fitments were Dunlop 215 70 R15 V rated. No longer made and haven't been for years (so if you find any on Ebay the rubber will be as hard as hell and well past its sell by date). A previous owner had fitted Pirelli 4000s in the same format. These too have moved into dinosaur territory in our size and any "new" ones still hanging around are pushing the definition of "new" by many years.

What to do, what to do? Search, search, search. The few classic suppliers of anything suitably "aged in design" wanted an arm and a leg (plus my kidneys for VAT) and worse still I was locking myself into a "wait for availability" problem should I have a two tyre event in the future. Lots of tyre sites took me all the way to the final search page before informing me "Sorry we don't have tyres for your vehicle". I quietly damned their time-wasting into hell and moved on. Others even came up with tyres in the original sizes: van tyres, not always that cheap either if they had a known brand on them and in lower speed ratings than the originals.

Contrary to various politicians and commentators we Jaguar-owning pensioners do not have access to unlimited offshore pension slush funds (spent my working life in engineering not banking) so I want to save money as much as the next person, but I have to remind myself there's a difference between saving and cheap-skating. I spent 41 years waiting to get my one and only Jaguar and I intend to keep her on the road, except perhaps for the worst winter months when she can sleep in a nice garage when I get round to building it: job 997 and counting.

I swapped out the worst tyre for the spare, but that only put off the evil day and not for long as obviously the remaining front tyre was now the worst one, plus I had lots of grip on one side and not the same on the other (o.k. we're not belting down the Mulsanne Straight but I'd bet you'd notice it under a full-blown emergency stop). As they say "something had to be done". Either sell the wife and the cat (furry, not metal) or find good tyres at sensible prices. I self-vetoed selling the Memsahib as I'd have to fall back on my own cooking. I could survive that but all that meal prep and cooking would bite into spannering time. The cat was a non-starter, she has suspected provenance as being ex-witch's and I'm not risking the consequences.

One of the problems is that wheel sizes have moved on. Whilst much of it is pandering to fashion (and often ruining the ride quality when retro-fitted to older cars) cartwheel sizes keep rim velocities down on high speed vehicles thereby easing one of the many problems facing tyre designers. Hence the difficulties I had getting suitable 15" tyres and why the OP is having so much fun finding anything in 14". Now I could go up to 16" wheels with lots more tyre choice there, but as well as the tyres I'd have to buy 5 new wheels! Worst still she carries the beautiful, to my eyes, "pepperpots" which I don't want to lose and they don't exist in 16" as standard.

One company does make an 16" "equivalent" pepperpot at an eye-watering £300+ per wheel and you still have to buy the tyres! So for 5 wheels and tyres we're looking at £2000+. That's way more than "Bagheera" cost me in the first place and if I was spending that kind of money would go a long way towards an LPG conversion to ease her drink problem.

There had to be a way. Buying part-used tyres from the internet was too close to playing Russian roulette with everyone's lives and falling back on finding new-old-stock tyres wasn't the answer either as the rubber would be aged. Then the blinkers came off! Age thing of course, but we oldies well remember when British (e.g Dunlop and Avon) and European (e.g. Michelin and Pirelli) tyre makers were always first port of call for those round black things that stick you to the road and everybody else (particularly far-eastern) made things that behaved like Teflon on ice esp in the wet. I needed to "get with it, modernise, come on board, ride the wave blah blah" and be able to take advantage of modern tyre technology somehow.

That was where I found Falken tyres, yep, the one and the same people coming to Motofest with their drift team, managing to get a few recommendations for 914 Econolines but unfortunately only in H speed rating. H is way above UK requirements but one notch down on the originals, so I opened dialogue with my classic insurer to keep them informed, but also to get their feedback. Unfortunately the first response was that they might have to inform the underwriters to see if it was classified as a modification (bet that means at least a £25 fee to add it to the policy), so would I inform them when I was ready to do the tyre swap.

At the same time as this Damoscene event re thinking of new tyre brands I tried a new tack re tyres: given that the problem with the originals would be the same for everyone then what were the professional rebuilders/refurbishers recommending and fitting? Lo and behold KWE Engineering, Jaguar XJ refurbishers/rebuilders par excellence of this parish were recommending Falken 912s! Falken don't do 912s in 215 70 R15s but they do make 225 60 R15s (W rated too) which were the ones Falken recommended and the new rolling radius didn't muck up the speedo too much either.

Even better my local garage/tyre-fitting service was a Falken outlet and the tyres were available, next day delivery. Checking the tyre's "European test" ratings gave good wet grip (better than the Pirellis incidentaly, which I've never liked in the rain when pressing hard), low noise but only A rated for fuel economy. The fuel economy thing was irrelevant, even a 5% improvement at 15mpg wouldn't have swung the deal if the tyre had poor wet grip and/or high noise.

Back to the insurance company: with details of KWE as professional builders and their recommendation, plus the fact that the 912 exceeded the old tyre's speed rating and had better wet grip (useful in the UK's climate). Now virtually no problem. Could I confirm that it was not a modification below the original spec? Got them to follow up to KWE and bingo! We now have 912s fitted at £84.95 each fitted and balanced and I'm a happy bunny. Equally important the insurance company is up to speed on it.

It's a pain, it's a chore, but jumping through some of these hoops just has to be done to make everything official. We enjoy a very special privelege with our classics in being able to keep them on the road and use them so we just have to bite the bullet and show we play our end of the game "by the rules".

AND finally, as they say, good news: as we speak even, another courier has just delivered the EBC Ultimax brake pads (a bargain at around £20 per axle). So now I can go lay on the ground, do the oil change, fit the brake pads and tempt it to rain on me.

Hopefully all will be well and we'll see some of you at Motofest!

[madmog]

May 28, 2015 6:33:05 GMT ChasR said:

May I ask what size of tyre you have fitted? If it is 185R14 .....

If that's a question for me as OP, the standard is indeed 175/80-14 on 5.5" wheels.

There's a 6.5x14" wheel as fitted to W107s which allows a bit of a fatter tyre. Or 7x15"steels off something, I think W126 or W202 Mercs. While that gives more tyre combos the 14" the relatively cheap 14" hubcaps won't fit.

[HARDCORE]

May 28, 2015 10:48:08 GMT pcj said:

AND finally, as they say, good news: as we speak even, another courier has just delivered the EBC Ultimax brake pads (a bargain at around £20 per axle). So now I can go lay on the ground, do the oil change, fit the brake pads and tempt it to rain on me.

Were your insurance company ok with you fitting brake pads that differ from the manufacturers original specifications?

[BenzBoy]

I wonder how many 1950s and 60s car owners are fitting radials instead of the manufacturer-recommended cross-plies without telling their insurers...?

[Dez]

May 28, 2015 20:42:21 GMT BenzBoy said:

I wonder how many 1950s and 60s car owners are fitting radials instead of the manufacturer-recommended cross-plies without telling their insurers...?

I'm not! crossplies, cable brakes and friction shocks FTW. just as andre citroen intended.

i did top up the oil with asda own brand the other day though. best give brentacre a ring tomorrow.

[braeburn]

May 28, 2015 20:33:26 GMT HARDCORE said:

May 28, 2015 10:48:08 GMT pcj said:

AND finally, as they say, good news: as we speak even, another courier has just delivered the EBC Ultimax brake pads (a bargain at around £20 per axle). So now I can go lay on the ground, do the oil change, fit the brake pads and tempt it to rain on me.

Were your insurance company ok with you fitting brake pads that differ from the manufacturers original specifications?

Pah ha ha ha ha.
It is a chore never having to list my tyre spec's on every insurance quote I've ever tried to get, ever.

[Deleted]

There is a big difference (from an insurance underwriter view) from OEM parts being fitted and tyres that were not designed for that type of vehicle and that have a much lower speed rating, as someone said the speed rating is not just about top speed but how the tyres react at a prolonged road speed.