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always wondered with this how will they define modified, at the end of the day is a 1930s 3 litre Bentley fitted with a 4 litre engine any differnt to a 1970s Cortina fitted with a zetec? Well either way, neither of those cars would fail the 8 point test, even if you assume the gearbox has been swapped out too, such a car would still muster 11 points and be safely "unmodified" - so long as the chassis of the Bentley and the shell of the Tina have not been chopped about to get the motor in. This is the scenario that bothers most rodders/ modifiers, one small bit chopped from a bulkhead to ease the fitting of the engine and suddenly, you have a radically altered vehicle with all the nausea that entails - and i'm not talking about paying road tax here, as has rightfully been said elsewhere, if the free tax is a make or break for you, you are in the wrong hobby! What I am talking about is the BIVA which is the most ridiculous, officious piece of rubbish ever dreamed up by a beaurocrat. I'm quite sure that if the BIVA was more sensible and more sensibly applied, so that a car which, at least externally, resembled how it looked when new, would have a chance of passing, there would not be so much fear and loathing of the thing and less folk would actively seek to avoid it! Admittedly, the older the car you start with, the harder it is, but I have read Blackpopracings thread with horror, all the way through, and the hoops they make him jump through are ridiculous, this or that radius is 2 degrees too small, your door hinges stick out mate, that's no good, your side indicator repeaters are too small, etc etc! IF the car had remained stock, ALL the original features would be retained (nay lauded) and the car deemed perfectly roadworthy. But because it has a bigger motor and the underpinnings to support it safely, suddenly it must conform to the standards of "safety" that apply to new cars today. It's RUBBISH! Forget fixing MOT regs that aren't broken, fix the s*****g BIVA which is! Steve
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Just because somebody hasn't taken up the option of going Historic it doesn't necessarily mean that the DVLA are uninterested a human has to apply with their V5C and a V10 form to change the taxation class, because its become eligible to do so. i agree its not clear, but i cant see dvla carpet bombing all the 40 year old cars on the 1st of jan every year, with the loss of revenue in mind.
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Last Edit: Oct 2, 2016 1:14:17 GMT by darrenh
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jamesd1972
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,840
Club RR Member Number: 40
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Just because somebody hasn't taken up the option of going Historic it doesn't necessarily mean that the DVLA are uninterested a human has to apply with their V5C and a V10 form to change the taxation class, because its become eligible to do so. i agree its not clear, but i cant see dvla carpet bombing all the 40 year old cars on the 1st of April every year, with the loss of revenue in mind. Fixed that for you ! 40 years old on 1st Jan tax free 1st April, I'm sure there is a reason...
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Oct 10, 2016 15:56:27 GMT
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Has everyone taken 5 minutes from their busy lives to protect all car owners futures by now ? Excellent , you won't need a reminder then ?
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sb
Part of things
Posts: 725
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Oct 10, 2016 16:31:59 GMT
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Has everyone taken 5 minutes from their busy lives to protect all car owners futures by now ? Excellent , you won't need a reminder then ? Done my duty, frankly this all seems like a thinly veiled way to demonise and remove modified cars from the road rather than be of any benefit.
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Oct 10, 2016 19:17:36 GMT
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Yep, done my bit.
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Oct 10, 2016 20:21:43 GMT
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. IF a stringent limit was introduced and IF there was a foolproof way of enforcing it you could probably still get round it by registering the vehicle as business use.There will be exemptions for wedding cars and classic car hire etc so register your car as a business on the basis of doing a few prom runs or something. . Am I right in thinking that if you register the car as business to use for proms etc then you would need hire and reward insurance as well as licencing and that would also mean the car wouldn't be RFL exempt. I know this is the case for historic buses, if used as H&R they are not RFl exempt whereas if you have lets say a 1964 Routemaster registered as a private vehicle it is exempt but you can't hire it out for profit.
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Oct 10, 2016 21:20:35 GMT
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. IF a stringent limit was introduced and IF there was a foolproof way of enforcing it you could probably still get round it by registering the vehicle as business use.There will be exemptions for wedding cars and classic car hire etc so register your car as a business on the basis of doing a few prom runs or something. . Am I right in thinking that if you register the car as business to use for proms etc then you would need hire and reward insurance as well as licencing and that would also mean the car wouldn't be RFL exempt. I know this is the case for historic buses, if used as H&R they are not RFl exempt whereas if you have lets say a 1964 Routemaster registered as a private vehicle it is exempt but you can't hire it out for profit. Yes on the insurance and licensing and the consultation mentions business use vehicles wouldn't be MOT exempt.No mention of RFL exemption,though i would think you are spot on. The buses work like that as you say,i used to be involved with a Routemaster that toured around on charity work but didn't carry paying passengers,that was RFL exempt. The only business use i could think of that wouldn't involve licensing and specialist insurance would be classics used as mobile advertising.I know of a 67 Beetle that parks in various towns every day advertising a local firm for example.
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Oct 10, 2016 21:26:51 GMT
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Interesting thread, important stuff.
One point from me though - when taxation or MOT class etc etc depends on the car being unmodified it seems like there is an assumption that modified will relate to the current 8 points out of 14 system.
There is no reason that I can see to believe that, the 8 point system is not at all to decide whether a car is modified or not or is historic, its to determine whether the car keeps its original identity or has been altered substantially enough to need to apply for a new identity, and therefore is tested to a standard required for new home built cars. (Flawed system yes, but thats its purpose)
This is not about identity, its about whether vehicles are of historic interest or not, and in that context I'd guess that its likely that to be of historic interest the level of originality would be much higher, and completely unrelated to the 8 points system. Different system with different aims and different rules.
I think changes that will restrict use will happen, I've said that for a long time. I just hope its possible to choose not to register a car as historic and therefore not get the "benefits" and restrictions. I'm not banking on that though.
I also believe that to imagine that governments wouldnt do something that would harm tax revenue from our hobby is just wishful thinking, its really peanuts and besides, the cars will still exist, and even if the hobby was hit hard the public (us) would still spend our wages, just on something else, it doesnt matter a bit to the government what we spend it on, either way we will earn, then spend, paying tax twice on our earnings and the revenue will arrive just the same but via different routes.
The government didnt mind upping tax on hot pasties, there are two shops in every shopping street that sell those, to a large percentage of the public. Jobs are lost that cripple whole regions when the demand isnt there (Redcar steel) and the government cant change that, our hobby is tiny in the big picture of revenue and if we don't fight nobody in power will get upset when the tiny number of people spread thinly around the country have to look for a new job. Stop dreaming that its a big enough hobby to frighten the goverment into protecting it, it really isnt.
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Oct 10, 2016 23:00:27 GMT
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Well yes,but the pastie tax was a misguided idea to try and increase revenue.They weren't throwing revenue away by artificially restricting usage or making it non viable to own a warm pastie. Greggs warned of shop closures and they employ 20,000 people,a U turn was made.
Redcar involved i think about 1700 workers in a business that was not viable due to cheap imports and green taxes.Terrible for the area and obviously knock on job losses too (as there would be in the classic car world) I can't find up to date figures..but in 2011 around 30,000 people were directly employed in the classic car trade and there were close to 4000 specialist companies and suppliers. Ok it's spread all over the country and in terms of overall revenue it is small but it's not totally insignificant imho.
Agree with you on the subject of the 8 point rule,i don't think it's a given that will be the method used for determining "historic".
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Thing is to lobby to ensure the 8 points system IS used ,no point reinventing the wheel and 'they' will want to do theses changes with the least amount of cost to all.
350,000 Historic cars/ light vans registered ( approx) at the last tally , how many would be modified ? Small change compared to the amount of normal no hassle cars out there.
NOTHING is going to change, BIVA isn't going to get rewritten nor are vehicle identity rules going to be changed to take into account' your' specific circumstances. Look at it in objective broad terms . Something WILL change , we all need to try to minimise that impact while achieving what the Consultation requires at minimal cost and maximum effectiveness.
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Oct 11, 2016 10:04:05 GMT
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Given all the other challenges the government has at the moment I can't see then entering the minefield of what is modified and what is not, cars going right back to the 1930's have had engine swaps, brake / suspension upgrades etc, the task almost certainly upset many people including those with quite expensive machinery who are likely to use the courts etc, given they already have the points system all I can see is them being a bit more rigorous about applying this.
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MrSpeedy
East Midlands
www.vintagediesels.co.uk
Posts: 4,786
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Oct 11, 2016 11:56:04 GMT
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Given all the other challenges the government has at the moment I can't see then entering the minefield of what is modified and what is not, cars going right back to the 1930's have had engine swaps, brake / suspension upgrades etc, the task almost certainly upset many people including those with quite expensive machinery who are likely to use the courts etc, given they already have the points system all I can see is them being a bit more rigorous about applying this. Sadly our illustrious leaders seem to prefer meddling with things that are relatively unimportant, in the grand scheme of things, rather than getting on with things like running the country, Brexit etc
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Oct 11, 2016 12:50:21 GMT
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Some on an MG forum are worried about things as minor as a chrome bumper conversion or fitting a five speed box meaning they will fail an originality test. The thing is who is going to be the judge and jury,where are they going to find an army of rivet counters with the knowledge of original specs to enforce it at minor levels like that. On the subject of vintage Bentleys there are more than a few Le Man style cars that certainly didn't leave the factory with those bodies. In South Australia, the historic vehicle registration scheme (pre-1978) is administered by the car clubs, and many of them are sticklers for originality. Each club has an annual "Historic vehicles day" where all the club members bring their cars in to be inspected by the club's designated Historic Registration person and have their logbooks issued. I have heard of a Mustang owner being warned for having blue silicone spark plug leads, as these are not original! Definitely no lowering, no widened wheels, no upgrades to disc brakes unless they were available as a factory option. This is an optional system, you can continue to pay full registration fee if you wish and drive the car every day. Otherwise, you pay about a quarter of the usual fee, and receive a logbook which entitles you to drive the car for 90 days out of the year. Every time you get in the car, you have to fill in the logbook and therefore use up one of your 90 days. If you get caught not filling the logbook in, then you can be charged with driving an unregistered vehicle.
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Rob M
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,915
Club RR Member Number: 41
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Oct 11, 2016 12:53:22 GMT
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Well yes,but the pastie tax was a misguided idea to try and increase revenue.They weren't throwing revenue away by artificially restricting usage or making it non viable to own a warm pastie. Greggs warned of shop closures and they employ 20,000 people,a U turn was made. Redcar involved i think about 1700 workers in a business that was not viable due to cheap imports and green taxes.Terrible for the area and obviously knock on job losses too (as there would be in the classic car world) I can't find up to date figures..but in 2011 around 30,000 people were directly employed in the classic car trade and there were close to 4000 specialist companies and suppliers. Ok it's spread all over the country and in terms of overall revenue it is small but it's not totally insignificant imho. Agree with you on the subject of the 8 point rule,i don't think it's a given that will be the method used for determining "historic". Speaking from personal experience, I'm buggered If I can think of any Owners Club that Ive frequented who didn't have members with modified cars and actively encouraged people to modify if they wanted to. My take on it, for what its worth, is that the FBHVC have been given carte blanche to represent OCs and classic car owners without any other interested groups being able to have any real influence, let alone sit at the top table. Its very name conjours up the glove wearing, flat capped Healey owner yet the vast majority of classic car owners are usually driving the humdrum and the modified. I'm not certain that the powers that be have bought modifieds into the financial equation, all that trade, all that money in things ranging from modified wheels to bespoke mounting to drop Zetecs into non Fords and the like. If we leave the negotiating to the FBVHC, we are doomed. Possibly.
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sb
Part of things
Posts: 725
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Oct 11, 2016 12:54:07 GMT
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Some on an MG forum are worried about things as minor as a chrome bumper conversion or fitting a five speed box meaning they will fail an originality test. The thing is who is going to be the judge and jury,where are they going to find an army of rivet counters with the knowledge of original specs to enforce it at minor levels like that. On the subject of vintage Bentleys there are more than a few Le Man style cars that certainly didn't leave the factory with those bodies. In South Australia, the historic vehicle registration scheme (pre-1978) is administered by the car clubs, and many of them are sticklers for originality. Each club has an annual "Historic vehicles day" where all the club members bring their cars in to be inspected by the club's designated Historic Registration person and have their logbooks issued. I have heard of a Mustang owner being warned for having blue silicone spark plug leads, as these are not original! Definitely no lowering, no widened wheels, no upgrades to disc brakes unless they were available as a factory option. This is an optional system, you can continue to pay full registration fee if you wish and drive the car every day. Otherwise, you pay about a quarter of the usual fee, and receive a logbook which entitles you to drive the car for 90 days out of the year. Every time you get in the car, you have to fill in the logbook and therefore use up one of your 90 days. If you get caught not filling the logbook in, then you can be charged with driving an unregistered vehicle. Sounds like a horrific system. An old car is an old car regardless of what is bolted to it.
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Oct 11, 2016 14:26:06 GMT
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Well yes,but the pastie tax was a misguided idea to try and increase revenue.They weren't throwing revenue away by artificially restricting usage or making it non viable to own a warm pastie. Greggs warned of shop closures and they employ 20,000 people,a U turn was made. Redcar involved i think about 1700 workers in a business that was not viable due to cheap imports and green taxes.Terrible for the area and obviously knock on job losses too (as there would be in the classic car world) I can't find up to date figures..but in 2011 around 30,000 people were directly employed in the classic car trade and there were close to 4000 specialist companies and suppliers. Ok it's spread all over the country and in terms of overall revenue it is small but it's not totally insignificant imho. Agree with you on the subject of the 8 point rule,i don't think it's a given that will be the method used for determining "historic". Speaking from personal experience, I'm buggered If I can think of any Owners Club that Ive frequented who didn't have members with modified cars and actively encouraged people to modify if they wanted to. My take on it, for what its worth, is that the FBHVC have been given carte blanche to represent OCs and classic car owners without any other interested groups being able to have any real influence, let alone sit at the top table. Its very name conjours up the glove wearing, flat capped Healey owner yet the vast majority of classic car owners are usually driving the humdrum and the modified. I'm not certain that the powers that be have bought modifieds into the financial equation, all that trade, all that money in things ranging from modified wheels to bespoke mounting to drop Zetecs into non Fords and the like. If we leave the negotiating to the FBVHC, we are doomed. Possibly. Yes fully agree Zeb,I'd also hazard a guess that a good solid proportion of what i would call everyday retro/classic owners are not owners club members and hence not represented or consulted by the FBHVC in any way.This would probably explain the low numbers given in FBHVC mileage estimates as their knowledge/statistics base is restricted.They probably represent the annual mileages of an 1899 Panhard far more accurately than an average 60's MG or Minor.
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Oct 11, 2016 14:30:16 GMT
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Some on an MG forum are worried about things as minor as a chrome bumper conversion or fitting a five speed box meaning they will fail an originality test. The thing is who is going to be the judge and jury,where are they going to find an army of rivet counters with the knowledge of original specs to enforce it at minor levels like that. On the subject of vintage Bentleys there are more than a few Le Man style cars that certainly didn't leave the factory with those bodies. In South Australia, the historic vehicle registration scheme (pre-1978) is administered by the car clubs, and many of them are sticklers for originality. Each club has an annual "Historic vehicles day" where all the club members bring their cars in to be inspected by the club's designated Historic Registration person and have their logbooks issued. I have heard of a Mustang owner being warned for having blue silicone spark plug leads, as these are not original! Definitely no lowering, no widened wheels, no upgrades to disc brakes unless they were available as a factory option. This is an optional system, you can continue to pay full registration fee if you wish and drive the car every day. Otherwise, you pay about a quarter of the usual fee, and receive a logbook which entitles you to drive the car for 90 days out of the year. Every time you get in the car, you have to fill in the logbook and therefore use up one of your 90 days. If you get caught not filling the logbook in, then you can be charged with driving an unregistered vehicle. That does sound pretty dreadful but at least it is optional and not forced on everyone.
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Oct 11, 2016 14:30:54 GMT
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Seems like the only place you can do whatever you like to a car and still drive it on the public roads is America.
Which is understandable, the USA and it's citizens being how they are about cars. And being a sizeable majority of the population, car owners have a powerful lobby.
We'll all just have to move to California (or Nevada, Texas, New Mexico etc) if the rules here get TOO stupid! Oh, right, they already are! Now where did I put my passport?
Steve
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