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Davey
Posted a lot
Resident Tyre Nerd.
Posts: 2,230
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They all want reporting, so so dodgy.
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K11 Micra x3 - Mk3 astra - Seat Marbella - Mk6 Escort estate - B5 Passat - Alfa 156 estate - E36 compact
Mk2 MR2 T-bar - E46 328i - Skoda Superb - Fiat seicento - 6n2 Polo - 6n polo 1.6 - Mk1 GS300
EU8 civic type S - MG ZT cdti - R56 MINI Cooper S - Audi A3 8p - Jaguar XF (X250) - FN2 Civic Type R - Mk2 2.0i Ford Focus
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Curtis
Part of things
Posts: 622
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Ebay LogbooksThread dedicated to exactly this matey, get them posted for mass reporting
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Driving:
Shitbox Honda S-MX |
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fazzer
Part of things
Posts: 213
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Can't be used for trike and who would pay that sort of money for a logbook unless you had other ideas,happens a lot in the hot rod world when registering a fibreglass hot rod you want tax/mot exempt.Keep ya vw,s locked away safely.
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fad
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,781
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It happens a lot in the hotrod world, and not for nefarious reasons (and definitely nothing to do with making it tax exempt). Sadly the system is so difficult to navigate that the easy-out is to just register it with an existing V5. Unfortunately, the availability then means that folk wanting to change the ID of a stolen car can do so, easily.
A couple of example scenarios that I know about personally...
A wreck of a Beetle gets bought from an old timer, it has a V5 with it. All checks out ok. 1000's get spend restoring it. Comes to getting it on the road, and the car has been registered as scrapped. WTF? Turns out the V5 is one that was lost, re-applied for, then found later. In the meantime the car had been scrapped, but not destroyed, bought as a donor, sold as a legit car. The previous owner has since passed away. You have a perfectly restored scrap car sitting there. What do you do? Shout, scream, try and get it registered legitimately? Or discreetly buy a V5 that matches the vehicle for year and swap the ID? Yes, yes, it's easy to take the moral high ground but really, what would you do?
A Lotus Cortina has new strut tops, but the old chassis number is lost during the work. Chap tries to do it legitimately, gets the DVLA to inspect, inspector decides that since the grill and a couple of other mods done are not correct for that car, that the ID cannot be ascertained and so it needs a Q plate and all the pain in the arseness that comes along with it. But someone has a V5 for a Cortina that would fit the bill... Right down to the reg being very close.
A Karmann Ghia is bought from a scrapyard after being written off as cat B. Turns out that the reason for it after speaking to the previous owner, is a heavy handed insurance assessor and an argument about salvage rights. A long story short, the assessor wrote it off as a B for rear quarter and wing damage saying that he could not be certain that the floorpan had not been twisted. A quick inspection and measuring session confirmed that all was well and straight, and the car was in VGC needing a rear arch, decklid, new wheel (it had buckled) and new running gear (cracked gearbox and suspect axles). A quick V5 swap later and one dead car saves one that is saveable.
Those examples ^ are ones that I know personally, none of them were my cars, nor did I swap the chassis numbers about. I DID help with the work though, which is why I know about them.
Now on to my Volksrod. The spine from about 1/3 from the front to the tip of the framehorns is original. The chassis number is mine. The front 1/3 of the chassis is from a donor car, as is framehead. Floorpans are new OE items. The body is 4 different cars. Where do you draw the line for what constitutes ringing? It would have been just as easy for me to buy a new chassis and put my number on it (I didn't do this). But essentially my chassis isn't far away from having just been a chassis plate and a V5.
My point here is that the letter of the law and the spirit don't always match. Don't be too quick to judge folk. Yes selling a V5 is naughty, yes using one is naughty. So are many naughty things that we do for good reason.
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Last Edit: Jun 8, 2017 11:29:47 GMT by fad
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fad
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,781
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bortaf
Posted a lot
Posts: 4,549
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It happens a lot in the hotrod world, and not for nefarious reasons (and definitely nothing to do with making it tax exempt). Sadly the system is so difficult to navigate that the easy-out is to just register it with an existing V5. Unfortunately, the availability then means that folk wanting to change the ID of a stolen car can do so, easily. A couple of example scenarios that I know about personally... A wreck of a Beetle gets bought from an old timer, it has a V5 with it. All checks out ok. 1000's get spend restoring it. Comes to getting it on the road, and the car has been registered as scrapped. WTF? Turns out the V5 is one that was lost, re-applied for, then found later. In the meantime the car had been scrapped, but not destroyed, bought as a donor, sold as a legit car. The previous owner has since passed away. You have a perfectly restored scrap car sitting there. What do you do? Shout, scream, try and get it registered legitimately? Or discreetly buy a V5 that matches the vehicle for year and swap the ID? Yes, yes, it's easy to take the moral high ground but really, what would you do? A Lotus Cortina has new strut tops, but the old chassis number is lost during the work. Chap tries to do it legitimately, gets the DVLA to inspect, inspector decides that since the grill and a couple of other mods done are not correct for that car, that the ID cannot be ascertained and so it needs a Q plate and all the pain in the arseness that comes along with it. But someone has a V5 for a Cortina that would fit the bill... Right down to the reg being very close. Sorry but if your stupid enough to fully resto a car before getting the V5 in your name your an idiot, as for the lotus, re stamp the vin yourself job done, been there, done it many times with inner wings and floor pans on the later cortinas, no need for a hooky ID swap. |
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R.I.P photobucket
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Are there ever legitimate legal reasons for buying just an ID?
No.
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Ryannn
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,421
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It happens a lot in the hotrod world, and not for nefarious reasons (and definitely nothing to do with making it tax exempt). Sadly the system is so difficult to navigate that the easy-out is to just register it with an existing V5. Unfortunately, the availability then means that folk wanting to change the ID of a stolen car can do so, easily. A couple of example scenarios that I know about personally... A wreck of a Beetle gets bought from an old timer, it has a V5 with it. All checks out ok. 1000's get spend restoring it. Comes to getting it on the road, and the car has been registered as scrapped. WTF? Turns out the V5 is one that was lost, re-applied for, then found later. In the meantime the car had been scrapped, but not destroyed, bought as a donor, sold as a legit car. The previous owner has since passed away. You have a perfectly restored scrap car sitting there. What do you do? Shout, scream, try and get it registered legitimately? Or discreetly buy a V5 that matches the vehicle for year and swap the ID? Yes, yes, it's easy to take the moral high ground but really, what would you do? A Lotus Cortina has new strut tops, but the old chassis number is lost during the work. Chap tries to do it legitimately, gets the DVLA to inspect, inspector decides that since the grill and a couple of other mods done are not correct for that car, that the ID cannot be ascertained and so it needs a Q plate and all the pain in the arseness that comes along with it. But someone has a V5 for a Cortina that would fit the bill... Right down to the reg being very close. A Karmann Ghia is bought from a scrapyard after being written off as cat B. Turns out that the reason for it after speaking to the previous owner, is a heavy handed insurance assessor and an argument about salvage rights. A long story short, the assessor wrote it off as a B for rear quarter and wing damage saying that he could not be certain that the floorpan had not been twisted. A quick inspection and measuring session confirmed that all was well and straight, and the car was in VGC needing a rear arch, decklid, new wheel (it had buckled) and new running gear (cracked gearbox and suspect axles). A quick V5 swap later and one dead car saves one that is saveable. Those examples ^ are ones that I know personally, none of them were my cars, nor did I swap the chassis numbers about. I DID help with the work though, which is why I know about them. Now on to my Volksrod. The spine from about 1/3 from the front to the tip of the framehorns is original. The chassis number is mine. The front 1/3 of the chassis is from a donor car, as is framehead. Floorpans are new OE items. The body is 4 different cars. Where do you draw the line for what constitutes ringing? It would have been just as easy for me to buy a new chassis and put my number on it (I didn't do this). But essentially my chassis isn't far away from having just been a chassis plate and a V5. My point here is that the letter of the law and the spirit don't always match. Don't be too quick to judge folk. Yes selling a V5 is naughty, yes using one is naughty. So are many naughty things that we do for good reason. The majority of the examples you've given could have been fixed legitimately, you know scrap cars can be registered, strut tops re-etched and previous owners are never wrong right?! Lol I probably wouldn't admit my car had a dubious ID on a public forum. |
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BT
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,772
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I think what concerns me a lot with this chap is he is selling log books for split screen campers (provided I've read his listing right). As we all know there is a huge amount of money in these things, even rotten old pears.
If the fading of V5s for such sought after vehicles is causing an increase, or even just making the process of theft easier, something certainly ha to be done.
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fad
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,781
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It happens a lot in the hotrod world, and not for nefarious reasons (and definitely nothing to do with making it tax exempt). Sadly the system is so difficult to navigate that the easy-out is to just register it with an existing V5. Unfortunately, the availability then means that folk wanting to change the ID of a stolen car can do so, easily. A couple of example scenarios that I know about personally... A wreck of a Beetle gets bought from an old timer, it has a V5 with it. All checks out ok. 1000's get spend restoring it. Comes to getting it on the road, and the car has been registered as scrapped. WTF? Turns out the V5 is one that was lost, re-applied for, then found later. In the meantime the car had been scrapped, but not destroyed, bought as a donor, sold as a legit car. The previous owner has since passed away. You have a perfectly restored scrap car sitting there. What do you do? Shout, scream, try and get it registered legitimately? Or discreetly buy a V5 that matches the vehicle for year and swap the ID? Yes, yes, it's easy to take the moral high ground but really, what would you do? A Lotus Cortina has new strut tops, but the old chassis number is lost during the work. Chap tries to do it legitimately, gets the DVLA to inspect, inspector decides that since the grill and a couple of other mods done are not correct for that car, that the ID cannot be ascertained and so it needs a Q plate and all the pain in the arseness that comes along with it. But someone has a V5 for a Cortina that would fit the bill... Right down to the reg being very close. A Karmann Ghia is bought from a scrapyard after being written off as cat B. Turns out that the reason for it after speaking to the previous owner, is a heavy handed insurance assessor and an argument about salvage rights. A long story short, the assessor wrote it off as a B for rear quarter and wing damage saying that he could not be certain that the floorpan had not been twisted. A quick inspection and measuring session confirmed that all was well and straight, and the car was in VGC needing a rear arch, decklid, new wheel (it had buckled) and new running gear (cracked gearbox and suspect axles). A quick V5 swap later and one dead car saves one that is saveable. Those examples ^ are ones that I know personally, none of them were my cars, nor did I swap the chassis numbers about. I DID help with the work though, which is why I know about them. Now on to my Volksrod. The spine from about 1/3 from the front to the tip of the framehorns is original. The chassis number is mine. The front 1/3 of the chassis is from a donor car, as is framehead. Floorpans are new OE items. The body is 4 different cars. Where do you draw the line for what constitutes ringing? It would have been just as easy for me to buy a new chassis and put my number on it (I didn't do this). But essentially my chassis isn't far away from having just been a chassis plate and a V5. My point here is that the letter of the law and the spirit don't always match. Don't be too quick to judge folk. Yes selling a V5 is naughty, yes using one is naughty. So are many naughty things that we do for good reason. The majority of the examples you've given could have been fixed legitimately, you know scrap cars can be registered, strut tops re-etched and previous owners are never wrong right?! Lol I probably wouldn't admit my car had a dubious ID on a public forum. Mine doesn't. |
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Do you honestly believe that? Therein lies some of the problem. I think you should stop digging. |
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Last Edit: Jun 8, 2017 17:53:06 GMT by colnerov
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fad
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,781
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Do you honestly believe that? Therein lies some of the problem. I think you should stop digging. Yes I honestly do. I don't see a problem pal. Using donor vehicles for chassis and body cuts and making repairs is perfectly legitimate. As is using roof skins for a roof chop and buying replacement OE spec floorpans and welding the in and using gearboxes and engines from other vehicles. Read my build thread, see for yourself, get clued up and wind your neck in. |
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Not going to get into an argument but there's no reason a vehicle declared scrap to the dvla can not return to the road, same with cat a or b vehicles they just usually aren't sold complete and burn outs are a nightmare.
Perfectly legit to re stamp the chassis number if that part of the body is replaced, anyone with common sense would save the original or at least have photos of it.
You would be exceedingly stupid to spend time and money on something you know nothing of the history of doing a full restoration then thinking oh I had better see if I can get a logbook.
Doing it any other way is just creating a ringer and opening yourself to a load of grief down the line.
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andyborris
Posted a lot
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose.
Posts: 2,167
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Unfortunately, I think the rules of both the DVLA and the Insurance industry just hinder legitimate enthusiasts like ourselves, without really stopping the thieves and ringers.
But it is a fine line, for example: rebuilding a MK1'Tina into a Lotus Rep is fine, using a V5 to do it for profit, isn't. But because a Lotus Cortina is just a Cortina with bits added, (that's the way they were made when new), no one may know...so, what's the harm?
I don't know, it's all now very philosophical, in a kind of "what noise does a falling tree in the forest make, if no one hears it?" way!
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fad
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,781
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Not going to get into an argument but there's no reason a vehicle declared scrap to the dvla can not return to the road, same with cat a or b vehicles they just usually aren't sold complete and burn outs are a nightmare. Perfectly legit to re stamp the chassis number if that part of the body is replaced, anyone with common sense would save the original or at least have photos of it. You would be exceedingly stupid to spend time and money on something you know nothing of the history of doing a full restoration then thinking oh I had better see if I can get a logbook. Doing it any other way is just creating a ringer and opening yourself to a load of grief down the line. Maybe. I'm just giving examples of cases I know where it was not done for profit, to cover a theft or anything nefarious, but done because it was the easiest, simplest, cheapest most hassle free solution at the time,and while illegal, where is the harm? Who has been wronged? Point out the victim of this crime, because I cannot see one. I'm not advocating it, was not responsible for nor carried out the ID swap, I am simply citing examples of V5 use that I know of. What they did may or may not be different to what someone else would do. Not my cars, not my decision. When it came to MY car, I opted to repair my chassis rather than swap the complete chassis for a donor. I used cuts from other vehicles, I used repair panels, and I did it that way for lots of reasons. Not ONE of those reasons was because "that's what the rules say" though. |
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Last Edit: Jun 8, 2017 18:49:33 GMT by fad
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The wronged person is the one who buys one of those 3 and finds out the vehicle doesn't match the log book.
Or they take their new pride and joy to a show get pulled by DVSA/ VOSA and loose both the car and their money.
And I would bet a pound to a penny the only original lotus part about that Tina was the logbook, the value of a genuine one is way too high to even think about making a ringer from an original one.
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fad
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,781
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Which is just as likely to happen with a chassis number you stamp yourself.
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fad
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,781
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Now here's a pic of a genuine 356 body dropped onto a custom chassis with a midmount V8 as penance for the bitching and arguing... Apart from anyone who wants to have a go at my Volksrod and throw accusations around from a "Holier than thou" clueless not-even-read-the-build-thread-so-not-got-a-clue standpoint, they can poke it and my comment stands.  |
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Last Edit: Jun 9, 2017 7:18:43 GMT by fad
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