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Information over on the 'other side', even more cr*p is being snuck out by Government as a supposed Consultation which MOST will ignore. www.rodsnsods.co.uk/forum/licensing-legal-section/more-heavy-curse word-530026 Consultation here (4.10 - 4.14 specifically): www.gov.uk/government/consultations/road-vehicles-improving-air-quality-and-safetySeriously though, if you choose to stick your head in the sand & ignore this consultation, expect ANYTHING you register from this summer on to be essentially Fu***ed unless you can afford a brand new 2018 compliant engine... (naaah, he's talking BS... isn't he?). BULLET POINTS AND DRAFT LETTERS ARE BEING PUT TOGETHER BY A VERY COMMITTED FEW & ARE LIKELY TO BE READY AFTER THE WEEKEND. If anyone is interested, I'll be happy to share info as I get it. Cheers...
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Last Edit: Feb 9, 2018 12:28:10 GMT by moosevan
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what exactly are you gettibg your knickers in a twist over??
this is all for new vehicles.
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Darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,681
Club RR Member Number: 39
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If you follow the link its this.
Consultation description
The draft regulations include:
new penalties for supplying a vehicle with a defeat device a new laboratory test procedure (WLTP) for measuring fuel consumption revised emissions and safety standards for specialist and converted vehicles stricter end of series derogations
Which then in the consulatation itself goes to describe the methods that will be employed.
The Fury Kit car I built in 2014 - included a cat and with Omex ITBs etc on a New (2004) crate Duratec met Euro 5 emmissions and meets current MOT emmissions same as any other manufacturer 2014 car.
The issue for some comes in under 4.10
Kit cars 4.10 Kit cars and reconstructed classic cars undergoing IVA will not be required to meet WLTP, given that at present they are not required to meet NEDC or the latest EU standards. Instead they are tested to age-appropriate MOT standards, on the basis of the date of manufacture or first use of the engine. 4.11 We are proposing that for kit cars, compliance with the MOT emissions standards current at the date of registration will be required, despite the use of an older engine. In other words the current relaxation for emissions according to the age of the engine will no longer apply. 4.12 Reconstructed (restored) classic cars undergoing IVA will not be required to meet the latest MOT standards, as long as the appearance of the vehicle is broadly unchanged and the engine is of the same capacity as that supplied with the vehicle when it was new. 4.13 When new vehicles were first required to be fitted with catalytic converters around 1992 (Euro 1 emissions standard), kit car makers typically used older engines which were not fitted with catalytic converters, hence the justification for age-appropriate testing of emissions based on date of engine manufacture or first use. The majority of the fleet is now vehicles up to 25 years old whose engines are fitted with catalytic converters, providing plenty of choice to the kit car builder.
And this question
10 Are you content with our proposal to require kit cars to meet the latest MOT standards, removing the current rule where vehicles are tested to MOT standards according to the age of their engine?
The trouble is that it has been written by someone who does not have a full grasp of the actual rules and how they are applied - Its placed under a heading KIT CARS but then goes on about reconstructed Classics - a different catagory altogether.
What appears to be the frightner here is that (B)IVA of any vehicle may require meeting the emission requirements at the point of the date of registration - Just like my Fury did without any issues at all. The reasoning being that the builders have 25 years of production options to chose from - They do actually have a point and I have no issues with it as unpopular as that will be as it does not concern me at all - nor any of the Classic car fraternity or 90% of retro riders or 90% of Kit builders - But Hot Rodders who have a tube chassis and 1960's V8 which is currently dubiously registered and if caught would need (b)IVA will need an LS motor with cats etc. as well as new glass and new soft furnishings.
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Last Edit: Feb 9, 2018 13:33:12 GMT by Darkspeed
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what exactly are you gettibg your knickers in a twist over?? this is all for new vehicles. Knickers not in a twist... just curse word off that everyone thinks "I'll just keep my head in the sand here, cos it doesn't matter to me"... The scare is that ALL kit cars / modified cars / Radical Rebodies / BIVA will HAVE to comply with the CURRENT (2018) emissions limits ON THE DAY OF REGISTRATION (NOT the date of engine as per now); THEY WILL BE CLASSED AS NEW REGISTRATIONS! Can YOU afford to put a brand new engine & electronics into your next build? If you think it doesn't apply to you - fine - you don't have to respond - or curse word at those who do care about the stuff we all enjoy messing with... Just don't whinge when you're the last man standing & they come for your toy... I know I'm paranoid , just been around long enough to have become a cynical old git. Remember, waaay back in 1938/1939 "“First they came for the *insert your chosen minority* and I did nothing, then they came for the *insert your larger chosen minority* and I still did nothing, then they came for the *insert your even larger chosen minority* and still I did nothing, then they came for me and no one else did anything.”If this offends, then I apologise unreservedly. Just go back and actually read what is being proposed - it is not a Consultation, it is a Notice of Implementation! AND all builds will have to comply ON THE DAY OF REGISTRATION TO THE CURRENT (AND FUTURE) EMISSIONS REGS - IT DOES APPLY TO ALL OF US!
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Last Edit: Feb 9, 2018 17:28:15 GMT by moosevan
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I think some are misreading this as the reference to 'kit cars' needing to meet modern standards will apply to factory built kit cars not home builds that will be going through IVA, why do I say that? Because.......
4.10 Kit cars and reconstructed classic cars undergoing IVA will NOT be required to meet WLTP, given that at present they are not required to meet NEDC or the latest EU standards. Instead they are tested to age-appropriate MOT standards, on the basis of the date of manufacture or first use of the engine.
SO that's kit cars that are ungoing a IVA will be not need to meet WLTP requirements. factory built kit cars don't have an IVA as they are tested as production vehicles.
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PROBLEM UNDER CONSIDERATION....
New road vehicles, in other words cars, buses, goods vehicles and their trailers, are required to meet various government-specified safety and environmental standards before they can be sold for the first time, a process known as type approval. These are a mixture of EU standards and international standards from the United Nations Economic Commission for Europe (UN-ECE), which are applied by domestic regulations. These standards are constantly being developed, to ensure that society continues to benefit from technological advances, in particular through improvements in road safety, improvements in air quality and reductions in carbon emissions that are relevant to climate charge. In respect of cars produced by the major car, truck and bus manufacturers, the domestic regulations simply apply the EU Whole Vehicle Type Approval (EU WVTA) scheme as it is set out in EU law, with no need for elaborating the detailed specifications in domestic law.
first three words... NEW ROAD VEHICLES
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Last Edit: Feb 9, 2018 20:06:37 GMT by Deleted
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The scare is that ALL kit cars / modified cars / Radical Rebodies / BIVA will HAVE to comply with the CURRENT (2018) emissions limits ON THE DAY OF REGISTRATION (NOT the date of engine as per now); THEY WILL BE CLASSED AS NEW REGISTRATIONS! ! where does it mention Modified, radical rebodies or even BIVA and where does it state anything about them being classed as new registration it only mentions KIT CARS, and also states kit cars that are having a IVA do not need to meet WMLP regs (factory built kit cars don't have an IVA as they are treated as production cars) You summed it up with the words SCARE.
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Darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,681
Club RR Member Number: 39
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The requirement is implied that anything going for (B)IVA will need to meet the emissions that will be in force at the time of registration and that is a fair assumption.
It is actually really scary for anyone in a position such as @blackpop found himself a while back - and I can gaurantee he will be furiously filling out paperwork to get his through ASAP - If you find yourself with the DVSA witholding your V5C and making you go for a (B)IVA you could be looking at attempting to get your 1960's Twin Holley Hemi to meet 2018 emissions.
WLTP and NEDC are about CO2/Mile emissions for taxation class - Not emissions for MOT checks.
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Feb 11, 2018 14:53:26 GMT
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The scare is that ALL kit cars / modified cars / Radical Rebodies / BIVA will HAVE to comply with the CURRENT (2018) emissions limits ON THE DAY OF REGISTRATION (NOT the date of engine as per now); THEY WILL BE CLASSED AS NEW REGISTRATIONS! ! where does it mention Modified, radical rebodies or even BIVA and where does it state anything about them being classed as new registration it only mentions KIT CARS, and also states kit cars that are having a IVA do not need to meet WMLP regs (factory built kit cars don't have an IVA as they are treated as production cars) You summed it up with the words SCARE. Rather that argue the toss over it why don't you shut up and let people campaign to keep our hobby alive. Your ill informed comments do as much damage as the meddleing government. Read this bit again - what part are you too dumb to understand?? 4.11 We are proposing that for kit cars, compliance with the MOT emissions standards current at the date of registration will be required, despite the use of an older engine. In other words the current relaxation for emissions according to the age of the engine will no longer apply.
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Feb 11, 2018 15:03:07 GMT
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They don't seem to playing by their own rules with only a 4 week consultation.Heres a quote from the governments code of practice on consultations. Criterion Duration of consultation exercises Consultations should normally last for at least 12 weeks with consideration given to longer timescales where feasible and sensible. The document goes on to say if the consultation runs for a shorter period the consultation document should be clear as to the reasons for the shortened consultation period and ministerial clearance (or equivalent, e.g. in nonMinisterial departments) for the shorter timeframe should be sought. I can't see any reason quoted for the 4 week consultation. The code of practice can be found here :- www.gov.uk/government/upload.../file47158.pdf
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Feb 11, 2018 15:09:50 GMT
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I've. Filled in the consultation and wrote to my MP, Don't let this hobby die by sticking your heads in the sand
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Feb 11, 2018 15:15:43 GMT
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Well done, Don't forget to write to; Jesse Norman MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State for Roads, Local Transport and Devolution e-mail jesse.norman@dft.gsi.gov.uk and use the subject line Transport Enquiry. I have just spoken to someone in the office of Andy McDonald MP for Middlesborough. He is the Shadow Minister for Transport. What a difference at his office... EVERYONE on here who responds to the "Consultation" has been asked to copy their response (AND any questions / observations which have been sent to Mr Norman as well) to his office: Mr Andy McDonald MP Middlesbrough Constituency Office Unit 4, Broadcasting House, Newport Road, Middlesbrough, TS1 5JA Telephone: 01642 246574 Email: info@andymcdonaldmp.org
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Feb 11, 2018 19:38:00 GMT
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The consultationis poorly written and they've lumped all vehicles that would use BIVA under the heading kit cars. National Standards ( as mentioned in document ) IS all the IVA set up , inc groupo M1 , N1 and the O series of trailers ( non powered obviously ).
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Feb 12, 2018 13:04:04 GMT
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I've responded!
Hopefully I've made appropriate remarks as I've not found/read any 'guides' on FB or whatever.
Some of the other (non-RR related) proposals make sense to me and I support them. However I was cautious about all changes to IVA and responded negatively on the (EU's) widening scope of vehicles requiring AEBS / LDWS. I am also 'unconvinced' about the new offence for Defeat Devices; surely it should be about attempting to defraud via the Type Approval system (rather than a device/technology which they will probably define poorly)?
But the stuff relating to "Kit Cars" is:
"... poorly thought through, confused and ignores the significant impact on individuals and the UK modified vehicle industry ..."
Oh, and I mentioned the short 'consultation' period too...
Answers copied to both MPs named above.
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Feb 13, 2018 23:19:55 GMT
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I can see where this is going. The new MOT exemption is going to require modders to self incriminate by declaring such. Having thus done this and STILL needing an MOT (no bad thing really) the government will (in theory) gain a neat list of all 40+ year old modified cars that they can go after. There SEEMS to be a way to avoid gtting your name on this list, by VOLUNTARILY continuing to MOT your car so you don't declare, one way or the other. And some more extreme modifieds, that have, so far, escaped detection will be exposed. This little charade over emmissions is just a way of making sure these cars never come back! Which will be a shame as they represent the pinnacle of the rodders art. But if they had been correctly registered and Biva'd in the first place it wouldn't be a problem, I can't see them changing the rules retrospectively on already built and registered kitcars and other modfieds from an MOT point of view, IE to suddenly require a car to have a CAT that previously didn't have or need one. It does worry me that ongoing and future builds of this nature will suffer from having to have the latest emmission equipment fitted (though it's understandable from an environmentalists point of view) so I will be completing the questionaire writing to the relevant MPs and all the rest, even though it DOESN'T affect me personally as I build my modified cars within the limits of the 8 point rule. Even so, this is just the tip of the iceberg, once they have banned (or priced out) the serious rods, they are sure to come after us smaller fry, so it behooves ALL of us to fight every step on the path to the destruction of our hobby/lifestyle/freedom.
I'm just kinda glad that I probably won't live long enough to see the day when your anonymous electric piece of leased junk will drive you wherever you want to go without any input from the "driver" beyond stating a destination! You youngsters who WILL live to see it have my deepest sympathy!
Steve
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To help others,you can ignore all questions except the ones about kit cars/biva which should be answered no.
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Feb 14, 2018 23:07:45 GMT
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4.11 We are proposing that for kit cars, compliance with the MOT emissions standards current at the date of registration will be required, despite the use of an older engine. In other words the current relaxation for emissions according to the age of the engine will no longer apply. This ^, does not mean this It doesnt mean that it will have to meet the same standard as a new mass produced car or use 2018 technology. The MOT test requirement is nowhere near as difficult to meet as new car standards. There is more written about this point on the other thread on the same subject, no need to repeat. Importantly, please read the wording and try to understand it carefully before declaring the end for our hobby, people need facts and any campaign needs facts, letter writing and petitioning loose credibility if they are factually incorrect and found to be an exaggeration. don't get me wrong, I think its needless and has too little benefit to the environment to be worthwhile, and we should oppose it, but we should understand what it means.
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But what happens if next year they tighten mot standards? That will be the next target.
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BIVA is NOT an glorified MOT it is a Compliance test ( same as TUV) where the standards required are HIGHER than MOT spec. Yes, it may well pass MOT but NOT BIVA without which you do not pass go Spoken as someone who has actuallyused teh BIVA test and helped many others to pass.
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I can see where this is going. The new MOT exemption is going to require modders to self incriminate by declaring such. Having thus done this and STILL needing an MOT (no bad thing really) the government will (in theory) gain a neat list of all 40+ year old modified cars that they can go after. There SEEMS to be a way to avoid gtting your name on this list, by VOLUNTARILY continuing to MOT your car so you don't declare, one way or the other. And some more extreme modifieds, that have, so far, escaped detection will be exposed. This little charade over emmissions is just a way of making sure these cars never come back! Which will be a shame as they represent the pinnacle of the rodders art. But if they had been correctly registered and Biva'd in the first place it wouldn't be a problem, I can't see them changing the rules retrospectively on already built and registered kitcars and other modfieds from an MOT point of view, IE to suddenly require a car to have a CAT that previously didn't have or need one. It does worry me that ongoing and future builds of this nature will suffer from having to have the latest emmission equipment fitted (though it's understandable from an environmentalists point of view) so I will be completing the questionaire writing to the relevant MPs and all the rest, even though it DOESN'T affect me personally as I build my modified cars within the limits of the 8 point rule. Even so, this is just the tip of the iceberg, once they have banned (or priced out) the serious rods, they are sure to come after us smaller fry, so it behooves ALL of us to fight every step on the path to the destruction of our hobby/lifestyle/freedom. I'm just kinda glad that I probably won't live long enough to see the day when your anonymous electric piece of leased junk will drive you wherever you want to go without any input from the "driver" beyond stating a destination! You youngsters who WILL live to see it have my deepest sympathy! Steve That is what ACE always believed about any method of separating Modifieds away from Historics. Question is will they start immediateley( May 2018) or get a years worth of info under their belt first ?
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