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Jonsey - It should but this is not good practice for a bodyshop - cars should be kept dry & moisture free once the paint preparation stages are commenced - body filler & some primers actually absorb moisture and if this is trapped under the final paint finish it will undoubtedly come through at some stage and lift the paint finish - its a very difficult balancing act attempting to keep a large workshop moisture free especially through winter where doors are opened & closed often / cars going in & out of the workshop etc - The epoxy coating over the bare metal is irrelevant if the fillers / primers that have been applied over the top of the epoxy are retaining moisture when the final paint finish is applied - hope that makes sense - Chris Thanks for the reply Grumpy. I'm hoping it'll be ok after a good bake. I know it's no fault of the painter. He's kept it in doors. It's just this time of year is pants. Ideally I would have liked it preped and painted in the warmer months but it's so hard to get a full paint job on cars here, you've got to take the time slot you can get. It's no different here my lead times for the larger jobs are in years not months !
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awoo
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,505
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thanks for the replies. ok, so i'll go on to the bits I missed out. I agree something has gone on under the paint. i'll try not to waffle on. also I'll just mention, I'm not going to name the garage, I hope if its an error its just something that won't happen again. I don't want to take the garage down or anything like that, he was a nice guy with a family, I don't want to screw anyone over etc. ok so at the point I left the parts at the garage (as in the photo below) you can see had flash rust. after handing it over, it had high build primer and a base coat. being a bit glossy this showed up imperfections, which I took back to sand back and give a skim of filler where needed. this is the bit where I got worried. as in places I was sanding back this white paint - it was going orange. the guy had painted over the rust on the edge I sanded back. I hoped it was just a missed bit and a one off. when I said I was worried, I was told about the best galvanising primers having been used, it will be fine. also when I first went to see him, he showed me the best way to do the filling of imperfections, by covering a wider area than I had with a finer filler, he went over a bit of rust here, and I raised it at that point, he said it wouldn't make a difference. whereas I had been meticulously cleaning to bare metal and wiping down with acetone before putting anything on top. so once I was "reassured", the paint job was done, he said in the morning it was going to get done, by about 11.30am I got a text to say it was finished. so from what I understand, it had the pearl layers and lacquer coats over the morning. some bits needed redoing, mainly I asked him to do the petrol tank again, as there was a ripple in the paint. if you look closely at the above photo there is a strip of white paint towards the front left edge of the petrol tank. the ripple in the new paint was exactly that shape of the left over paint. he hadn't sanded this off, just painted over it. he told me it was where rust had eaten in and chewed up the metal (I knew full well it wasn't). only when I sent him the above photo zoomed in, did it get done. I was starting to worry, as if something as obvious as that hadn't been sanded back then possibly none of it had, rust included. maybe just had loads of high build primer over the top. anyway I got it back all painted. it looked good. but there were a few things, which frankly I let slip as I just wanted it done and finished this point. but they were things like a dirty thumb print under the lacquer, edges not finished, areas thin on paint, bits of brown paper stuck to the paint, etc. then when fitting the indicators, I had to file back some paint to get the screws to fit, and found this I was scratching back paint and finding rust again. the front mudguard was brand new, this issue hasn't appeared on there. it hasn't appeared where the skims of filler are either. I'm thinking its rust that has been painted over causing these bubbles. he possibly just got slack and thought he could get away with painting over it all without sanding the body work down? so if this is a reasonable assumption, what can I do about this? I paid a lot for this job (more than £700) and the belief was that it would be done correctly. I reiterated how I didn't want any rust issues and wanted to prevent this as best as possible (living by the sea this is a big one, surely understood by everyone who lives in salty air) my understanding is that the sanding back is one of the big factors of a paint job and a large part of the labour, this is what you pay for and no one would knowingly spray over rust. and its a bit galling to think I might have paid someone £800 to do a few hours of spraying. is it reasonable to want all my money back? as if it needs to be redone it will be a huge job taking it all apart again, plus going to get it stripped back to bare metal again, resprayed and reassembled. and to say I'm gutted would be an understatement. I spent hundreds of hours on this and every single thing possible was done to this Vespa to make it better than new, and it's the only job I entrusted to someone else with.
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Mate, that's curse word poor!!!!
you deserve all your money back, what a bodge/amateur job. you may as well done it with rattle cans at home!!
If you were closer, i would offer assistance to re doo.......
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Mate, that's curse word poor!!!! you deserve all your money back, what a bodge/amateur job. you may as well done it with rattle cans at home!! If you were closer, i would offer assistance to re doo....... So now you agree he isn’t moaning?? curse word poor work that you need your dough back
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Fraud owners club member 1999 Jaguar s type 1993 ford escort
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Mate, that's curse word poor!!!! you deserve all your money back, what a bodge/amateur job. you may as well done it with rattle cans at home!! If you were closer, i would offer assistance to re doo....... So now you agree he isn’t moaning?? curse word poor work that you need your dough back Give it up will you ? Jaysus!! And no, his original post was a moan, justified though
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So now you agree he isn’t moaning?? curse word poor work that you need your dough back Give it up will you ? Jaysus!! And no, his original post was a moan, justified though 😅😀😀😀
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Fraud owners club member 1999 Jaguar s type 1993 ford escort
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thanks for the replies. ok, so i'll go on to the bits I missed out. I agree something has gone on under the paint. i'll try not to waffle on. also I'll just mention, I'm not going to name the garage, I hope if its an error its just something that won't happen again. I don't want to take the garage down or anything like that, he was a nice guy with a family, I don't want to screw anyone over etc. ok so at the point I left the parts at the garage (as in the photo below) you can see had flash rust. after handing it over, it had high build primer and a base coat. being a bit glossy this showed up imperfections, which I took back to sand back and give a skim of filler where needed. this is the bit where I got worried. as in places I was sanding back this white paint - it was going orange. the guy had painted over the rust on the edge I sanded back. I hoped it was just a missed bit and a one off. when I said I was worried, I was told about the best galvanising primers having been used, it will be fine. also when I first went to see him, he showed me the best way to do the filling of imperfections, by covering a wider area than I had with a finer filler, he went over a bit of rust here, and I raised it at that point, he said it wouldn't make a difference. whereas I had been meticulously cleaning to bare metal and wiping down with acetone before putting anything on top. so once I was "reassured", the paint job was done, he said in the morning it was going to get done, by about 11.30am I got a text to say it was finished. so from what I understand, it had the pearl layers and lacquer coats over the morning. some bits needed redoing, mainly I asked him to do the petrol tank again, as there was a ripple in the paint. if you look closely at the above photo there is a strip of white paint towards the front left edge of the petrol tank. the ripple in the new paint was exactly that shape of the left over paint. he hadn't sanded this off, just painted over it. he told me it was where rust had eaten in and chewed up the metal (I knew full well it wasn't). only when I sent him the above photo zoomed in, did it get done. I was starting to worry, as if something as obvious as that hadn't been sanded back then possibly none of it had, rust included. maybe just had loads of high build primer over the top. anyway I got it back all painted. it looked good. but there were a few things, which frankly I let slip as I just wanted it done and finished this point. but they were things like a dirty thumb print under the lacquer, edges not finished, areas thin on paint, bits of brown paper stuck to the paint, etc. then when fitting the indicators, I had to file back some paint to get the screws to fit, and found this I was scratching back paint and finding rust again. the front mudguard was brand new, this issue hasn't appeared on there. it hasn't appeared where the skims of filler are either. I'm thinking its rust that has been painted over causing these bubbles. he possibly just got slack and thought he could get away with painting over it all without sanding the body work down? so if this is a reasonable assumption, what can I do about this? I paid a lot for this job (more than £700) and the belief was that it would be done correctly. I reiterated how I didn't want any rust issues and wanted to prevent this as best as possible (living by the sea this is a big one, surely understood by everyone who lives in salty air) my understanding is that the sanding back is one of the big factors of a paint job and a large part of the labour, this is what you pay for and no one would knowingly spray over rust. and its a bit galling to think I might have paid someone £800 to do a few hours of spraying. is it reasonable to want all my money back? as if it needs to be redone it will be a huge job taking it all apart again, plus going to get it stripped back to bare metal again, resprayed and reassembled. and to say I'm gutted would be an understatement. I spent hundreds of hours on this and every single thing possible was done to this Vespa to make it better than new, and it's the only job I entrusted to someone else with. Ok - Your problems with the paint are a combination of factors but to sum it up it's very poor quality workmanship - lack of preparation - lack of detail and the job has been rushed - just ask for your money back - If he gets defensive just take the pics that you have to the local trading standards office at the council - I take it that you have a receipt for the work - has if you paid in cash with no receipt you have made it very difficult to prove that he undertook the work in the first place - even though he did !
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Being in the trade myself I'd always stand by my work, give a guarantee with the paintwork and redo anything a customer is not 100% happy with(which is rare). It only takes one bad job to ruin a tradesman's reputation. If I let that job out I'd be ashamed of my life.
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,714
Club RR Member Number: 34
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TBH I think he saw you coming. You did all the prep and filler work and still paid £700+? For that money I’d have expected a start to finish job including sandblasting and all prep work. It’s basiclaly 4 fairly small panels so 200 a panel would get you a pretty good job done from most smaller independent guys.
To just do the gun work on that is realistically a mornings work, plus maybe £150-200 in materials (and that’s being generous cos it’s a pearl, realistically he’s gunna have used leftovers for everything else as it’s such small panels and only actually bought a letre of paint at about £60 for a pearl). What you’ve got should have been maybe £300 and come with a caveat that if it looks sh1te it’s your fault, and no warranty.
I think you already know this but don’t want to admit it to yourself, but anyone who bullshits you can paint over surface rust with any kind of magical primer is a grade A shyster. The only way that’s ever gunna end up looking ok and lasting now is to drop it off at the sandblasters and start again.
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awoo
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,505
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thanks for the replies chaps.
I paid him via his business, which is a bodyshop within a family owned garage thats been there for ages, and I have paper work stating the work was done and paid for.
it stipulates no guarantees on rust but I was a hoping that it would be seen as poor workmanship, which is what I was hoping you guys or anyone else would see it as too.
I feel much better about sorting this now.
I was quoted £400 for a plain colour but it doubled with pearl as it has more layers etc. which to be honest seemed right from what I had seen, and my understanding of painting a whole car is that its a few grand. so this seemed about right to me, at the time.
just got a price from the store who do the paint, 2ltr of the paint (2ltrs total, 1ltr base and 1ltr pearl) comes to £120 inc vat and apparently would be enough to do the job with some left over.
I think he was taking the curse word, I was too laid back about it, wasn't in a massive rush but would like it done soon, just get it done when you can, was all matey about it etc. I should have been more of a demanding bar-steward about it
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I’m only going off pictures, but I’m sure you’d only need half a litre of base and ground coat at the very most!
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Specialist Bodyshop & Fabrication Classic, Retro, Prestige & Custom Small Repairs to Concours Restorations Mechanical Work Vintage to Modern
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awoo
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,505
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Dec 15, 2018 12:12:18 GMT
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update on this.
spoke to the guy who did the painting.
was totally dismissive of it, just said its rust under the paint and he doesnt guarantee rust.
wouldn't offer any kind of resolve, said he would do it again but would but only if paid in full.
claims that the panels just have rust in the metal and they were rotten (which is rubbish, they're solid, his colleague even said the panels were solid), and rust will always come back. he didn't think it was an unreasonable amount of time for the rust to come up under the paint either. he laughed when I said it was flash rust on the surface which was easily removed and he reckons theres no such thing as flash rust.
didn't seem to want to acknowledge any of his painting over rust and a couple other things he wouldn't acknowledge or take responsibility for. he was making excuses and changing his story a lot, such as saying he removed the entire base coat and primer and went back to bare metal, which I know wasn't the case as I left some deep sanding marks in one section and it came through on the final coat. so that was definitely curse word.
I've asked him to put it right and he's refused.
I'm going down the court route now, can't be bothered to be nice about it any more.
A couple of other body shops have seen it and said it was likely down to bad prep and/or moisture in the paint and were surprised it was that bad so quickly, said was poor form of the bodyshop, reputation is only good as your last job. one said to hammer him online (I won't do that). I've got quotes to put right, which will form the basis of the court claim. which states it needs to be rectified at no cost, within a reasonable amount of time and no significant upheaval on my part.
I need to get an independent evaluation of the job done too, so I'll make sure everything I let slip is taken account of. as there were a few other bits; like grit under the paint, thin areas, paint splatter, dirty thumb print under the lacquer, etc etc etc
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Dec 15, 2018 17:12:04 GMT
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rust doesnt bubble like that evenly over the whole panel ..its micro blisters where its been damp at some stage , can also get it when stored outside under a cover
probably cost you more in grey hair and court costs than to suck it up and do it again , if you had it blasted it shouldnt cost alot to have it painted or get a small compressor and diy it
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91 golf g60, 89 golf 16v , 88 polo breadvan
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Dec 15, 2018 19:38:48 GMT
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I'm going down the court route now, can't be bothered to be nice about it any more. As long as you've given him fair chance to see the work he did, a chance to rectify or reimburse you, and haven't told him how he's going to fix it for you, then it's court all the way. Giving someone zero opportunity to look over their "bad" work is the key element IMO. It's human to occasionally miss something and where people refuse to let you have a second look, I would back dismissing it entirely, but if he's had the opportunity to see it again, his work, what is blatantly obvious to everyone that looks at it, not even just others in the trade, well, it's his reputation that it'll cost and it's enough money/value to chase through the courts.
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Dec 15, 2018 19:45:20 GMT
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You are being very good to the bloke for not naming and shaming him on the net.....but unfortunately I wouldn’t I’d be making sure he’s reputation was damaged if he wasn’t playing ball tbh
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Last Edit: Dec 15, 2018 19:45:51 GMT by Mercdan68
Fraud owners club member 1999 Jaguar s type 1993 ford escort
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gumpy
Part of things
Posts: 93
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Dec 15, 2018 20:28:36 GMT
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How can he say he doesn't warrant rust when that is clearly micro blisters from moisture. As others have said £800 should've included the prep work,is it possible for you to get a few quotes and assessment from another body shop and take that to him?
Genuinely feel for you. Working at a restoration garage myself we warrant all our jobs for 3 years against corrosion and pride ourselves with our work and reputation as I'm sure others do. This guy is just a money grabber with no pride.
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