Radically altered vehicle points

[Phil]

Evening all, i own a mg and at present i am planning some fairly frankenstein mods to it.  essentially i am trying to build it into a grand cruiser for my honeymoon round europe.

when i bought it it was (still is) in a fairly terrible state and i am replacing the engine with a 2ltr zetec coupled to a 5 speed 'box. all fairly standard up to now. i also originally toyed with the idea of dieseling it, and using all the running gear from a bmw. to this end i purchased a e30 rear subframe  to give me flexibility in diff ratios and IRS. the prior owner was an umitigated hack and has removed all but one leaf on both sides, as well as chopped drop links etc, so this made sense at the time.

however, i have now actually got time to get on with it and don't want to end up with something unregistable.


from the gov website i know the points are awarded thus:
Chassis, monocoque bodyshell (body and chassis as one unit) or frame - original or new and unmodified (direct from manufacturer) 5

Suspension (front and back) - original 2

Axles (both) - original 2

Transmission - original 2

Steering assembly - original 2

Engine - original 1

the body shell will be relatively unmodified (possibly additional bracketry, no chopping) so i have 5 points there
the steering assembly will be remain standard, bringing me up to 7

if i replace the rear suspension with original equipment were home dry with 2 points for the axles and suspension respectively....

however my question arises if i change the rear axle, are the 2 points for axles if i keep both or is it 1 point each axle? the same with the suspension?


also if i were to change the engine and gearbox, would i retain my original registration number, and tax exempt status?


thanks in advance.

[Badger]

From my understanding (and I'd be happy to be wrong) if you change the front or rear axle or suspension, you lose all the axle or suspension points. E.g: If you switched to an IRS set up you wouldn't be able to claim points for suspension or axle originality, even if the front is totally stock.

AFAIK if you keep above 8 points the car retains its identity.

[Rebuilda]

I think Badger is understanding it correctly.
There are however mitigating circumstances on classics with engine swaps such as being a greener engine and/or the old engine being uneconomical or impossible to repair. Each is weighed on it's own merits and if declared, may possibly need an inspection. I think the other components are taken into consideration and if the inspector thinks you've gone to far it'll be IVA territory.
Changing the engine, transmission and back axle / suspension will very probably make it 'radically altered'.

[lord13]

yeah, it's two points for both axles, if you change one you lose all the points for axles. If you JUST change the engine and gearbox you will keep the reg number and free tax status, but lose the MOT exemption. Unless the engine was one available for that vehicle at the time of manufacture.

[Phil]

thought as much. maybe a job for the future then.. plan is to get it solid, and swap engine and gearbox for now, then in a few years add the irs from the e30

[Phil H]

Doesn’t matter when you do the change but when you drop below 8 points, you lose the reg.

Something Landrovers come a cropper on from time to time..

[legend]

e30 doesn't have very nice geometry anyway, there's more modern and better designed rear ends out there

[Phil]

Feb 3, 2019 11:29:48 GMT Phil H said:

Doesn’t matter when you do the change but when you drop below 8 points, you lose the reg.

Something Landrovers come a cropper on from time to time..

yeah i realize this, i've just owned the mg for about 3 years and mad approximately 0 progress so want it to see the road soon.  then when life gets less hectic i can change more bits and do the IVA.

could/shouldve made that clearer in hindsight....

[Phil]

Feb 3, 2019 12:30:09 GMT legend said:

e30 doesn't have very nice geometry anyway, there's more modern and better designed rear ends out there

does it not? 

i bought it in my younger days because it was a similar track width to the mg, and was planning on widening the front...

i have seen the PPC has an article on 4 linking a mg so could do that and retain 8 points...

decisions decisions....

[Nathan]

This was my fear when doing the engine conversion in the MGB GT, I ended up staying away from the IRS etc and kept everything standard bar the engine and box. TBH the BGT rear end is not that bad for cruising, off the shelf items are around to make it corner that bit better so if I were you I'd just stick with the engine and gearbox.

[carledo]

A Friend of mine has an MGBGT whih has a Rover V8 and IRS. The IRS is a kit one which mounts to a subframe attached to the original suspension pickup points, so no BIVA inducing body mods (though it was STONKINGLY expensive) and because the V8 was a factory possibility (even though this car wasn't a proper one) it's apparently still legit, only 4 points off for axles and suspension leaving 10 which is a good margin! I'm not sure whether it's affected his entitlement to MOT exemption, but in any case, he's a sensible guy and like me, has it tested regardless.

Steve

[Phil H]

The “more environmental” engine clause was something in the consultation document, but doesn’t seem to have made it to the final regs..bit of a shame really as fitting a Rover V8 where a B series fitted is ok, but swapping a modern engine running injection with one of the same litreage and configuration isn’t..but they’re the rules.

[andyborris]

Just wondering really, do these rules apply to all vehicles or just cars (or PLG's)?

[truckdoctor]

Jul 6, 2019 10:35:06 GMT Phil H said:

The “more environmental” engine clause was something in the consultation document, but doesn’t seem to have made it to the final regs..bit of a shame really as fitting a Rover V8 where a B series fitted is ok, but swapping a modern engine running injection with one of the same litreage and configuration isn’t..but they’re the rules.

Is your statement correct? reading through the MOT exemptions it says {- The following are considered acceptable (not substantial) changes if they fall into these specific categories:

• changes that are made to preserve a vehicle, which in all cases must be when original type parts are no longer reasonably available;

Does this mean I could replace my old original flathead v8 engine ( as original type parts are no longer reasonably available ) with a Jag AJv8 engine or rover v8 engine I wonder. What do you think?

[Phil H]

Define “reasonably”..because they can’t., otherwise they would quantify it.

Are they available (albeit expensive)? Then I’d say that’s “reasonably available“ even if your wallet doesn’t agree.

If you have to scour Beaulieu for years to find something that can be reconditioned by only one guy, then I’d say that’s not reasonable.

But it’s not me making the decision - that’s in the hands of the epitome of consistency.

[Implandy]

don't confuse MOT exemption with vehicle registration ,

IVA is identity and yes based on mods to retain original identity or re registered as a new identity, new id means 40 years starts ticking again but hey its new so no MOT for 3 years

The substantially modified and 'green or safety mods'is to do with MOT exemption in VHI's, so change to greener engine but cut the bodyshell then its no longer vhi or mot exempt and needs iva as the body cut makes it radically altered

[truckdoctor]

Thanks for the replies.
Yes understood regarding the distinction of points identity and MOT - VHI rules. In the Substantial Change Guidance regarding improved efficiency it mentions in respect of axles and running gear changes made to improve efficiency, safety or environmental performance; Is this rule to include engines?
And, if an engine is changed to improve efficiency and no body cuts are made, does it remain a vehicle of historic interest? Therefore, not requiring an MOT .

[Implandy]

If engine isnt of a type available for that model ie , landie with rover v8 is ok , but add a Cummins then thats altered as Land Rover never offered it. That would be substantially altered but not radically altered unless you you change other parts.If you change parts whether its for efficency or environmental once you fall below 8 points your in IVA territory no matter what your reasons for doing it.

[truckdoctor]

Thanks for your reply

[dodgerover]

Actually people have been fitting different engines to landrovers since they first came out, Perkins diesel engines of all kinds along with pretty much every engine from every manufacturer along with Chevy V8s and yank diesels have all been common enough for pretty much anything to be classed as a period modifications and not lose the MOT exemption.
Look at the range of adaptor kits that used to be available from the likes of Miller off road or Ashcroft transmissions to find alternative engines.