Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,712
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Nov 30, 2015 11:33:05 GMT
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My first thought was a Perkins 540, but they're a big lump and figured you'd be struggling for room with one of those tbh. We'll have a spare BMC 3.8 soon if that's of any interest, but I'd guess it's a bit too old school for what you're looking at?! There some ex water pump ones on eBay with serious low miles for 1500 quid each at the mo. Quite a bit of cash for just a motor but they do have a clutch setup. They do look very wide and tall though. Then there's the issue of what box to use with them, and wether they'd take turbos without dying. As you say, once you get Into other stuff they'd be more primitive than what I'm taking out
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Last Edit: Nov 30, 2015 11:34:26 GMT by Dez
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,712
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Nov 30, 2015 11:41:39 GMT
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I bought my donor DAF 45 for £950 delivered. It's a chassis cab (no rear body to dispose of, bonus), with a sleeper cab and a few extras like electric windows that will hopefully sell on. I'll be using engine, gearbox, air system, the actuating part of the braking system and a few sundry bits. There'll be axles going spare here if you need them. I decided it would be better to stick with my original axles and brakes, because it keeps the points (and lets me keep the stock wheels without mucking about). It would be well worth you taking the time to crawl around a couple of different 7.5 ton wagons, just to see what will and what won't work. I love the 6BT, and am very fortunate that I am looking to fit it in place of a six cylinder BMC engine of very similar dimensions. I can understand your issues with making it fit though, as it's very long compared to a flathead V8. I'm not a fan of them, but there's always the GMC 6.2/6.5 V8 diesel... Exactly. That's very good value for money compared to any other donor. I want to use the wheels as I'm on 20" split rims. Even though it came with some new tyres, I wouldn't trust em for high speed running. So going over to 19.5s would be about right. Makes sense to use the rear axle to keep the gear ratios right. The keep the front but upgrade the brakes. As long as I keep the stock leafs and steering, I've still got 8 points. I'm also not a fan of the gm diesels. Ive just run a tape across it again, and depending on what rad and intercooler I use, and where I mount them, it might just go with only a slight firewall massage.
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Last Edit: Nov 30, 2015 11:42:40 GMT by Dez
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Nov 30, 2015 11:47:50 GMT
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How difficult would it be to move the cab back 6" and extend the bonnet to fill the gap getting the room that way?
by the time you have commercial radiator and a intercooler up front you are going to need all the room you can get.
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glenanderson
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,101
Club RR Member Number: 64
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Nov 30, 2015 12:07:33 GMT
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The DAFs run 17.5" rims. I reckon they'd look a little lost on an older truck. Here's a pic of my spare 20" rim next to the DAF for comparison: 19.5" rims aren't exactly common over here from what I've found. You'd also need to find a 10tonne DAF 45 as a donor, with its eight stud axles (the 7.5 ton versions are 6 stud). I think (not sure) that the ten tonners are full air braked, not air over hydraulic (I also seem to recall that later LF 7.5 tonners are also full air, which might affect your donor choice). I can understand your reluctance to use the original rims, but alternatives aren't exactly growing on trees. 19.5" tyres are also dearer than 20" ones. There's a chap on volkszone currently doing a lot of research into a COE/normal control project (a lot of thinking aloud, interesting read). If you do stick with larger rims, the DAF axle is going to be overgeared: they're 4.1:1 or 4.56:1 depending on application. The decision you make on wheels and tyres is probably going to drive the choice of axles and gearing. Something to consider is that your original Ford gearbox will likely be 1:1 top, and the ZF in a DAF is overdriven 1.26:1, so the fact the engine isn't so revvy is offset somewhat.
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My worst worry about dying is my wife selling my stuff for what I told her it cost...
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dubwarrior2
Part of things
"Open up, its the filth"
Posts: 576
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Nov 30, 2015 12:31:06 GMT
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Have you seen this vid on youtube?
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,712
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Nov 30, 2015 14:06:26 GMT
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Hmm, lots to think about. 17.5s wouldn't look too bad if I lowered it, and would give me a lower bed height. I'm gunna have to change the axle I think, stock ratios are either 5.83/8.11 or 6.33/8.81 in the two speed., so not great. And a single donor drivetrain makes much sense.
The other plan was go proper nuts and make up some adapters to 10 stud and run lorry alcoas machined down to 22". I've done some maths and SUV tyres are weight rated high enough. It would look nuts, but also cost rather a lot.
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glenanderson
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,101
Club RR Member Number: 64
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Nov 30, 2015 15:52:33 GMT
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I did my sums, and a 5.86:1 Austin axle, running 8.25 R 20 tyres is the same overall ratio (give or take) as a DAF on its low profile 17.5s with the 4.56:1 axle.
Ideally, I want to run 7.50 R 20 tyres, which are a little smaller, but about 11kg lighter each. That makes a massive difference when it comes to manhandling them, as well as nearly 90kg saving on the truck overall with six running wheels and two spares. I decided that a custom CROWN wheel and pinion to get an ideal ratio once I was up and running was a better investment than putting money in tyres and wheels that I'd always feel were a compromise.
Your needs are obviously different, especially if you want to lower it, and wheel and tyre choice is going to be hugely personal. Just watch your weight limits, both for the wheels and the tyres. I considered going for new eight stud 19.5" tubeless rims, and 9R 19.5 tyres, but it was going to be £300 + a rim and £300 + a tyre. When you need four drive axle tyres and two steer axle tyres, plus two spares, it starts to get really dear really quickly. No way I'm spending north of four grand on wheels!
You might be able to get off the shelf alloys to fit from the States, but I know my mate Andy has been struggling.
Probably a good idea to survey what you've got to start with before getting too carried away with donor axles. If you've a 5.83:1 axle you'd probably get away with it to get things rolling, but the lower one's definitely going to be too low. Worth surveying the cost of servicing and repairing the donor bits too. It's cheaper and not much more difficult to source bits for my Austin axles than it is for the DAF, so I decided to keep mine stock. I also harbour notions of air springs, so keeping the points was/is important to me.
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My worst worry about dying is my wife selling my stuff for what I told her it cost...
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Nov 30, 2015 17:28:20 GMT
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Already been discussed. Problem is they're more or less unobtainum in the UK. Apart from some case diggers and plant, we never got them. I'm currently investigating the Isuzu 4bd1t motor from the npr/nqr trucks which is supposed to be vaguely related and seems like a good but rather pricey option. Our Man 7.5 tonner is fitted with one.
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Nov 30, 2015 18:40:01 GMT
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We have a 2008 daf lf45 with a cummins/ paccar 4.5 ltr 4cyl in it. Electrically its pretty advanced compared to the older stuff. Wont do anything without full batterys, Ecu needs to see neutral before it will start etc. That said, It does have a nice 5 speed box, and hydraulic clutch with air assist. Not full air . Due to the ECU complexity. I don't think id recommend one as a source for an engine Ours is becoming a motorhome, And is my ongoing project,
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Last Edit: Nov 30, 2015 18:41:08 GMT by Deleted
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,712
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Nov 30, 2015 19:05:43 GMT
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Already been discussed. Problem is they're more or less unobtainum in the UK. Apart from some case diggers and plant, we never got them. I'm currently investigating the Isuzu 4bd1t motor from the npr/nqr trucks which is supposed to be vaguely related and seems like a good but rather pricey option. Our Man 7.5 tonner is fitted with one. are you sure? what year and model is it? a MAN 7.5tonner of the correct age to have a 4bt should be 4.6L not 3.9. further research would suggest MAN built their own engines in-house, and there is no way any MAN truck should have a cummins....
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Last Edit: Nov 30, 2015 19:23:06 GMT by Dez
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Nov 30, 2015 19:46:54 GMT
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Registered 2000 W plate 4580cc deisel
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,712
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Nov 30, 2015 20:12:12 GMT
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not a 4bt. MANs own engine.
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,712
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Nov 30, 2015 20:14:26 GMT
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How difficult would it be to move the cab back 6" and extend the bonnet to fill the gap getting the room that way? by the time you have commercial radiator and a intercooler up front you are going to need all the room you can get. would eat into valuable bed length. ive figured i think i can get rad in the convention place with some mods to the inner wings providing the core os of average thickness, id have to get creative with intercooler location though.
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Nov 30, 2015 20:19:37 GMT
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not a 4bt. MANs own engine. Yeah its starting to look that way .... Been doing a bit of google research myself ...........I was going on what our fitters were saying,as one of them was measuring it up to see he could fit one in his landy .......
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Nov 30, 2015 20:21:53 GMT
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We have a 2008 daf lf45 with a cummins/ paccar 4.5 ltr 4cyl in it. Electrically its pretty advanced compared to the older stuff. Wont do anything without full batterys, Ecu needs to see neutral before it will start etc. That said, It does have a nice 5 speed box, and hydraulic clutch with air assist. Not full air . Due to the ECU complexity. I don't think id recommend one as a source for an engine Ours is becoming a motorhome, And is my ongoing project, You want to see the amount of electrics on my 14 plate daf lf55. Horrifying!
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,712
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Nov 30, 2015 20:25:24 GMT
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I did my sums, and a 5.86:1 Austin axle, running 8.25 R 20 tyres is the same overall ratio (give or take) as a DAF on its low profile 17.5s with the 4.56:1 axle. Ideally, I want to run 7.50 R 20 tyres, which are a little smaller, but about 11kg lighter each. That makes a massive difference when it comes to manhandling them, as well as nearly 90kg saving on the truck overall with six running wheels and two spares. I decided that a custom CROWN wheel and pinion to get an ideal ratio once I was up and running was a better investment than putting money in tyres and wheels that I'd always feel were a compromise. Your needs are obviously different, especially if you want to lower it, and wheel and tyre choice is going to be hugely personal. Just watch your weight limits, both for the wheels and the tyres. I considered going for new eight stud 19.5" tubeless rims, and 9R 19.5 tyres, but it was going to be £300 + a rim and £300 + a tyre. When you need four drive axle tyres and two steer axle tyres, plus two spares, it starts to get really dear really quickly. No way I'm spending north of four grand on wheels! You might be able to get off the shelf alloys to fit from the States, but I know my mate Andy has been struggling. Probably a good idea to survey what you've got to start with before getting too carried away with donor axles. If you've a 5.83:1 axle you'd probably get away with it to get things rolling, but the lower one's definitely going to be too low. Worth surveying the cost of servicing and repairing the donor bits too. It's cheaper and not much more difficult to source bits for my Austin axles than it is for the DAF, so I decided to keep mine stock. I also harbour notions of air springs, so keeping the points was/is important to me. i have 8.25-20s that came with but a mixture of those and 7.50 on the truck. IIRC they're around 200 a tyre. bar grips are cheaper. ive looked at the wheels on the truck and they're odd, they're not a normal split rim that needs a spreader, but a solid round ring you need to dismount into the rim bed then lever over, not dissimilar to a tyre bead. so probably safer than i thought in use but look horrendous to get on and off! if the axle is the better ratio i could just strip all the shifter guff off to lock it in that gear, if its in good order. have to strip it first i guess.i know i can get wheel cyl rebuild kits for the axles, but i think thats about it. i imagine even shoes would have to be relined. are 19.5s that unusual? i though they were pretty common?
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sketch
Part of things
Posts: 194
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Nov 30, 2015 20:28:11 GMT
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I know where there's a Mercedes atego going for spares if that's any good as a donor?
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heathrobinson
Part of things
Broken everything
Posts: 848
Club RR Member Number: 111
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Nov 30, 2015 22:04:57 GMT
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The 6bt is a great engine, so if you can fit it, it'll be the best bang-for-buck. I saw one in a hot rod with a split intercooler - two small-area high-flow ICs, with one mounted in each wheel arch, running from one into the next. That might help fit it all in. A dragster I was reading about the other day had gone from twin turbos to a big single, but kept the twins IC setup, running the two in parallel as opposed to series. They reckoned that it was equally as effective as one big one. Running them in parallel also effectively doubles the through-flow of each IC, so you don't need to shell out for ones with massive pipes in and out. Maybe even finding a pair from something in a scrapyard to keep it cheap. I'm looking into this way of doing it for our 4x4 daf, as I want to tweak the 6bt in that a bit.
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Nov 30, 2015 22:17:50 GMT
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Did we get Hino trucks here? They use about a 4 litre diesel with a turbo not sure if it might be a straight 6 though.
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glenanderson
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,101
Club RR Member Number: 64
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Nov 30, 2015 22:25:49 GMT
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19.5s aren't common over here. We seem to mainly have 22.5s on the bigger stuff, and 17.5s on the tiddlers. I've not found a source of UK ones, I think they're much more common in the States. Tyres for them are a good bit dearer than 20" rims too, from what I've found. I tracked down radial 8.25 and 7.50 20s for just under £200 each, with crossply ones from about £135. The 19.5s were about £300 each. I wouldn't touch bargrips with a barge pole. I've driven enough miles on them to never want to do another. They do have one advantage in addition to their low cost; you won't need to raise your gearing as you won't want to drive fast on them! To be honest, I've sort of resigned myself to forking out for a new set of radials for mine when the time comes as they make steering and stopping so much more predictable, and you don't get that crossply wandering with them. If you've already got some decent tyres I'd seriously consider sticking with them. The original rims were designed to allow roadside tyre changes without special tools, often without even removing the wheel from the hub. The hardest thing is getting an ancient tyre, that's been on there years and is rock hard, to move from where it's stuck on. Once you've had them off and cleaned and painted them it shouldn't be too bad. The low range side of the axle would be a nice thing to get working, but you're right, with a modern engine you'll not need the facility. Stripping it out might not be straightforward, but you could certainly leave it locked in high. I like the idea of a two speed axle, but they do add a layer of complication with speedo drives and control gear. If I had one I'd work out a way of using it, but as I don't I'm certainly not bothered enough to muck about swapping axles. What weight are you planning on running at? You know the pre-1960 MoT exemption for stuff over 3.5 tonnes is only valid if you're unladen? My mate is considering a petrol BMW V8 and manual box for his project, but he's planning on staying under 3.5t so wants to avoid the extra weight of a diesel lump. He's also not planning on doing many miles with it, so economy isn't his first concern.
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My worst worry about dying is my wife selling my stuff for what I told her it cost...
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