Mig welders.

[kent24v]

Hi all

Had a quick search but didn't find anything specific so I apologize if I'm asking a repetive question.

I'm currently in the market for a mig welder (Read, it's exam time and instead of studying, I'm looking at welders to pass time)

I have a Vauxhall senator which requires some repairs and a good friend (SA1CLOVER on here) helped out and started the repairs for me, however I have a few other projects which require some welding so I figure rather than pay someone, spend the money on a welder and learn.

Complete beginner, only used a mig once before. Question I wanted to ask was which welders is everyone using and why? Was it budget/machine spec/recommendations etc.

No real set budget but would like a solid machine, with euro torch. Mainly to be used for bodywork with some minor fabrication projects using 3-4mm steel currently swaying toward an r-tech 180 or an older eland mig 175 currently on eBay due to Thomas having an eland mig 130 and being impressed with it's build quality and robustness..

[madzuki]

I used a BOC 130 Turbo for years, but was never really happy with it. OK, but inconsistent.
10 years ago my lad got a Mini to restore which turned out to need mega amounts of welding. After taking lots of advice I ended up spending more than intended on a Portamig 185.
One of the best decisions ever. Fantastic welder, can't praise it highly enough. Lowest setting I can weld steel so thin it's porous.
Got mine here:
www.weldequip.com

[Deleted]

I bought a Tec Arc 211 (exactly the same as a Portamig) also getting on for 10 years ago, its a transformer machine so its big and heavy but I'm very pleased with it, goes down low enough for car body repairs and upto 200ish so 6mm should be fine. Not had any problems with it whatsoever.

[Deleted]

Purchase the best quality invertor based MIG you can find - it's easy to find the good ones they have a decent warranty with them - if you can find one with a 'Synergic' setting then all the better - Transformer based MIGs are now useless when compared to an invertor based MIG.

[docjohn]

Yep, grumpy's right. The difference between a cheap transformer mig and a decent invertor is like night and day. A good machine will make welding a pleasure rather than a tedious chore. I upgraded to an ESAB Caddy C160i and never looked back.

[slater]

If you have the cash and your going to buy new then go for an inverter machine sure, but really they are not nessicary and apart from 'feeling' a bit smoother they don't actually allow you to do anything you can't do with a normal MIG. To call them 'useless' is quite frankly b-u-l-l-s-h-i-t-e

If your at the lower end of the market go 2nd hand. If your running off 240v then go for something around the 160-200amp range that has a euro torch and you can't go far wrong. Avoid hobby migs that have fixed torches. At most you may need a 16amp socket installed to run a welder like that at full wack but it's far from nessicary if you just want to do car bodywork and medium gauge fab work, a 13 amp socket will suffice.

If you want to buy new I recommend r-tech. There's a lot to go wrong with a modern welder. Much more than an old one anyway so the most important thing is aftermarket support which r-tech are good at. They sell to the hobby end of the market a lot i think so are very approachable.

[sausage]

And make sure the lowest amps is low enough for thin metal.

[Deleted]

Jan 14, 2019 11:56:44 GMT slater said:

If you have the cash and your going to buy new then go for an inverter machine sure, but really they are not nessicary and apart from 'feeling' a bit smoother they don't actually allow you to do anything you can't do with a normal MIG. To call them 'useless' is quite frankly b-u-l-l-s-h-i-t-e

If your at the lower end of the market go 2nd hand. If your running off 240v then go for something around the 160-200amp range that has a euro torch and you can't go far wrong. Avoid hobby migs that have fixed torches. At most you may need a 16amp socket installed to run a welder like that at full wack but it's far from nessicary if you just want to do car bodywork and medium gauge fab work, a 13 amp socket will suffice.

If you want to buy new I recommend r-tech. There's a lot to go wrong with a modern welder. Much more than an old one anyway so the most important thing is aftermarket support which r-tech are good at. They sell to the hobby end of the market a lot i think so are very approachable.

In your own opinion maybe - now find me a genuine time served full time classic car restorer that still raves about his transformer based MIG - Fact is you won't has they have all gone down the inverter route - it's just makes the job so much better thanks to the step less control you have over that of a transformer based machine - Entry level inverter based MIG's have never been this affordable so why would you bother with something that's used / transformer based and nowhere near has versatile has a inverter based machine - None the less you do make a couple of valid points within your posting 'R Tech' are good at what they do, they offer good warranties with their range and are very good to do business with (based upon my own recent personal purchasing experience with them) - Interestingly they only stock & retail inverter based MIG's

[elfman]

i have owned a R Tech for a few years now, good company to deal with, i am not a welder by Trade but a friend of mine is and he used my MIG and was impressed with it... I'm not sure how it would be if you used it day in day out but for the work I have done with it i cant complain as its a good bit of kit. Its done all the work so far building a space frame from scratch..

[Darkspeed]

I have used transformer MIGs exclusively and I get a decent enough job from them not to bother worrying about trading up. Far more important than the trans/invertor argument - IMHO - is Gas - Argon Mix - Wire diameter - 0.6 (for thin steel)- a good quality torch ( euro does not guarantee that but at least the fitting means its easy to change) a good quality mask and finally - a work ethic that puts preparation at the top of the list.

Regarding The invertor argument - For thin steel all I see people do these days is trigger pulse / stitch / plug welding and I am sure there is very little difference between machine types in that instance and if you switch to thicker metal I don't think there is much to choose - The biggest difference is machine size and weight and the idiot proofing of the settings.

The real difference between a good weld and a bad weld is the welder not the machine.

[Deleted]

Jan 14, 2019 18:06:30 GMT Darkspeed said:

I have used transformer MIGs exclusively and I get a decent enough job from them not to bother worrying about trading up. Far more important than the trans/invertor argument - IMHO - is Gas - Argon Mix - Wire diameter - 0.6 (for thin steel)- a good quality torch ( euro does not guarantee that but at least the fitting means its easy to change) a good quality mask and finally - a work ethic that puts preparation at the top of the list.

Regarding The invertor argument - For thin steel all I see people do these days is trigger pulse / stitch / plug welding and I am sure there is very little difference between machine types in that instance and if you switch to thicker metal I don't think there is much to choose - The biggest difference is machine size and weight and the idiot proofing of the settings.

The real difference between a good weld and a bad weld is the welder not the machine.

Whilst you are at the top the class with your response in the first paragraph of your post in regards to correct preparation, gas mix, wire, torch & mask - you are close to or if not at the bottom of the class with your response in the second paragraph for the following reasons / examples


Novice classic car owner Fred purchases a transformer based MIG - he has some thin metals to weld up on his car - does all the right prep & has the correct kit but then comes to weld his two bits of thin metal together - the transformer based MIG on the No 1 setting gives 25 amps which does not allow for enough weld penetration so he turns the dial up to number 2 which gives him 50 amps which in turn burns holes through his attempts at welding.


Meanwhile novice classic car owner Jim has the same scenario but he purchased an inverter based MIG - he tries at 25 amps then at 50 amps with the same results has Fred had - but knowing where he now stands he turns the step less inverter based MIG to 40 amps and starts to achieve good quality welds - so he cracks on with the job and gets it done with good results - so pleased with himself that it gives him the confidence boost to tackle his first engine rebuild & goes on respray the car himself.

Classic car novice Fred keeps trying but just keeps burning holes through what he is trying to weld or just can't achieve a strong enough weld bead - the repair area just keeps getting bigger has he cuts out his failed attempts - he takes the welder apart thinking that there is something wrong with it and now he has put it back together it won't work at all - he's gone through an endless supply of grinding disc's attempting to clean the poor quality welding up and now he has found a lot more rot than expected - he got a mate to fix the welder but now he has run out of gas because it's so inefficient at welding what he wants to weld in the first place - fixed welder and fresh gas but the welder still wont do the job he wants it to do and he's now wasted 4 weekends attempting to sort it and got nowhere - completely frustrated he's now not touched the car for months and his wife is now giving him earache about it


Jim - In his freshly self restored classic has just driven past Fred's place to see that his classic is still untouched and on bricks on the drive


Give me a bad welder and good inverter MIG and I bet I can have him / her welding quite efficiently within a few mins


Whilst size & weight of a MIG do a make a slight difference it's not about idiot proofing the settings - it's about having the flexibility to dial the machine in to exactly what ampage setting you need in order to give you right results efficiently

[kent24v]

Thanks for the replies guys, very much appreciated. I have done extensive research as I don't want the scenario when I buy a welder to be "I wish I had of bought x, y, z machine instead". as grumpy northerner states about becoming fustrated, that is a problem I wish to avoid. I am really beginning to look more so at inverter based migs due to the stepless nature.

Leaning heavily toward buying an r-tech unit. Although made in China by aland welders, the 3 year backup with option to extend is simply fantastic.

Next question, what gas are you guys using. Recommended for bodywork seems to be the argoshield 5??

[Deleted]

Jan 14, 2019 21:19:11 GMT kent24v said:

Thanks for the replies guys, very much appreciated. I have done extensive research as I don't want the scenario when I buy a welder to be "I wish I had of bought x, y, z machine instead". as grumpy northerner states about becoming fustrated, that is a problem I wish to avoid. I am really beginning to look more so at inverter based migs due to the stepless nature.

Leaning heavily toward buying an r-tech unit. Although made in China by aland welders, the 3 year backup with option to extend is simply fantastic.

Next question, what gas are you guys using. Recommended for bodywork seems to be the argoshield 5??

R Tech are good to deal with and the fact that it all comes with a good warranty is reassuring - I recently purchased a plasma cutter from them although I know plenty of people that have one of their MIG's

Gas wise I use Hobbyweld 5 which is fine for what you need - the 9 litre bottle will be sufficient enough (although I use the Ultra 20 litre size has I run a small restoration company)

www.hobbyweld.co.uk/products/


Don't hesitate to post up any further questions that you may have - Chris

[Darkspeed]

I think you dismiss the good old transformer MIG too readily - with your examples it's almost impossible to imagine how the thousands and thousands of home restorations carried out over the past 3 decades ever happened.
Shockingly bad welds and equally good welds can be produced with both types.

[Deleted]

Jan 14, 2019 22:11:55 GMT Darkspeed said:

I think you dismiss the good old transformer MIG too readily - with your examples it's almost impossible to imagine how the thousands and thousands of home restorations carried out over the past 3 decades ever happened.
Shockingly bad welds and equally good welds can be produced with both types.

I fully appreciate where you are coming from but lets put it in a different light I also own a very good quality Lincoln 180 Amp transformer based MIG and it's gone untouched / unused & gathered dust ever since the Parweld 185 Amp inverter based 'Synergic' MIG arrived in my workshop 2 years ago - has the capability of the invertor based machine is superior over that of the transformer based machine. Has you correctly state thousands & thousands of home restorations with transformer based MIG's have been carried out over the past 3 decades and that is something I am really happy about - it's introduced a significant amount of owners & restorers into the ever expanding classic & retro market. Has you are also probably aware I run a small restoration business and sadly 80% of my business is undertaking premature second restorations on vehicles that were incorrectly repaired with poor quality welding (along with many other poor quality repairs / paintwork to match) - had they been done properly in the first place with decent tools & kit then they wouldn't not require a second restoration but on the flip side I will never be out of work.

So when something comes to the market that does a better job, is more efficient and makes the first time or any number of times car restorers repairs easier to undertake then you can bet I will advise accordingly - I see all too many failed / abandoned projects because of a owners dreams that are initially enthusiastic about acquiring / owning & restoring a classic fall apart when they start welding.

[lord13]

I fully get the 'Inverter' MIG club, I do, they are fantastically efficient and smooth to control... However you can't dismiss a transformer type MIG just on that basis, many transformer MIG's are great to use and are above all cheap and available.

The above analogy about 'Fred' would be pretty accurate in some cases, but what if 'Fred' is on a very tight budget and can't afford an inverter based MIG? Saving up to buy a inverter MIG could keep his project off the road indefinitely, so a tranny MIG would do him nicely don't you think?

I have used many a welder, from a god awful sip machine that had 6 step controls to a massive 3 phase unit that had 3 dial controls ( main step, increments within main step, and something else I never touched ) and have had mixed results with both . . . the huge thing was for gates and would weld up to 10mm thick plate and down to 1mm thick sheet, but could cut through that if it wasn't set right. The sip worked for about a week before I had to strip it and rebuild it, it is still in circulation, my friend struggles with it from time to time, we call it 'orac' on account of the fact that it is now 'open case' with wires hanging out of it .

I used to have a lincoln FDB that was very versatile, but I sold that when times were hard. I now use a tiny little italian cheapo unit, with only four power steps. It only welds up to 100amp so it's ok for the little stuff but the work has to be very clean. It's a great little machine and just right for small repairs etc, cost £50 and I love using it. It is however a little temperamental on the gas, hates argon/Co2 mix, loves plain Co2. Don't ask me why but I've tried both and it welds best on Co2, which goes against all I know but that's the case. I also run it with the small disposable bottles, and they last ages with it...again I don't know why but they do. Funny little thing but that's how it is with it.

I also have a massive heavy Cebora ARC that I used for big welding, it's a nasty thing made out of dwarf star alloy or something equally as heavy but does the job . . .until I recently bought an inverter based ARC welder... wow that thing is versatile, I can weld 1mm sheet with it quite happily all day long ( I don't. I use the cheapo MIG, but I could use the Inverter ARC, it's that useable )

So yes, Inverter MIG's are they way forward, but to start off on your first project and on a budget, get a transformer based MIG, learn it's ( and your own ) capabilites and enjoy what you do...

I'm not a welder by trade, but my trade requires me to weld, and any job can be made good with the right preparation. A bad welder can get by with a good machine, but a good welder can weld with anything, good or bad, it's just a case of practice and preparation I believe.

[slater]

All it boils down to is. If you have 500quid go buy the new machine but a lot of people don't. They arnt professionals they are hobbyists looking for value and there's still great value in buying a second hand machine for a fraction if the price.


The best welder I've owned/own is a cheap sealey 185. Had it 20 years. Never gone wrong. One new torch over that time. Will weld anything from .8 steel to 20mm plate. Would cost no more than £200 second hand now. It will do anything an inverter MIG will really and is an absolute doddle to use. Certainly not useless.

[Deleted]

Jan 15, 2019 7:09:30 GMT lord13 said:

I fully get the 'Inverter' MIG club, I do, they are fantastically efficient and smooth to control... However you can't dismiss a transformer type MIG just on that basis, many transformer MIG's are great to use and are above all cheap and available.

The above analogy about 'Fred' would be pretty accurate in some cases, but what if 'Fred' is on a very tight budget and can't afford an inverter based MIG? Saving up to buy a inverter MIG could keep his project off the road indefinitely, so a tranny MIG would do him nicely don't you think?

I have used many a welder, from a god awful sip machine that had 6 step controls to a massive 3 phase unit that had 3 dial controls ( main step, increments within main step, and something else I never touched ) and have had mixed results with both . . . the huge thing was for gates and would weld up to 10mm thick plate and down to 1mm thick sheet, but could cut through that if it wasn't set right. The sip worked for about a week before I had to strip it and rebuild it, it is still in circulation, my friend struggles with it from time to time, we call it 'orac' on account of the fact that it is now 'open case' with wires hanging out of it .

I used to have a lincoln FDB that was very versatile, but I sold that when times were hard. I now use a tiny little italian cheapo unit, with only four power steps. It only welds up to 100amp so it's ok for the little stuff but the work has to be very clean. It's a great little machine and just right for small repairs etc, cost £50 and I love using it. It is however a little temperamental on the gas, hates argon/Co2 mix, loves plain Co2. Don't ask me why but I've tried both and it welds best on Co2, which goes against all I know but that's the case. I also run it with the small disposable bottles, and they last ages with it...again I don't know why but they do. Funny little thing but that's how it is with it.

I also have a massive heavy Cebora ARC that I used for big welding, it's a nasty thing made out of dwarf star alloy or something equally as heavy but does the job . . .until I recently bought an inverter based ARC welder... wow that thing is versatile, I can weld 1mm sheet with it quite happily all day long ( I don't. I use the cheapo MIG, but I could use the Inverter ARC, it's that useable )

So yes, Inverter MIG's are they way forward, but to start off on your first project and on a budget, get a transformer based MIG, learn it's ( and your own ) capabilites and enjoy what you do...

I'm not a welder by trade, but my trade requires me to weld, and any job can be made good with the right preparation. A bad welder can get by with a good machine, but a good welder can weld with anything, good or bad, it's just a case of practice and preparation I believe.

Very good points and it really is about where your target meets your budget - I fully appreciate that some guys out there can't afford a new MIG let alone the difference in price between a cheap new transformer based MIG and a entry level inverter based MIG - but that price difference has never been so little has to what it is today - shop about a little bit and the difference is circa £100 - the more people that immerse themselves in the classic / retro scene the better because has already stated it's market that is constantly growing & expanding has vehicles get older and if we don't find owners for the said cars has they gain collectable / classic status then they will disappear never to be seen again - recycled into a baked bean tin.


But lets not fool ourselves and advise newcomers to the scene or to a discipline that they have never undertaken that they can get by with purchasing something that will sort of do the job when for the sake of spending another £100 which purchases them an easier to operate & more versatile invertor based machine. If you can afford it then it's the route to take - if you can't afford it then you have cut your cloth accordingly and go down the transformer based route and possibly even the used transformer based route. Finally technology moves in many markets and quite often makes a substantial difference in many different items of tools & equipment - I still have my first spray gun that I purchased over 40 years ago - Divilbis JGA suction fed cup - it was state of the art in those days & quite effective in the right hands - it's in perfect working order but would I use it today to paint a vehicle - certainly not - It's sibling Divilbis GTI Pro comes out of the drawer - gravity fed it's more versatile, easier to use and significantly more efficient at putting a superb quality finish on vehicle but now I'm off topic

[Deleted]

Jan 15, 2019 8:08:41 GMT slater said:

All it boils down to is. If you have 500quid go buy the new machine but a lot of people don't. They arnt professionals they are hobbyists looking for value and there's still great value in buying a second hand machine for a fraction if the price.


The best welder I've owned/own is a cheap sealey 185. Had it 20 years. Never gone wrong. One new torch over that time. Will weld anything from .8 steel to 20mm plate. Would cost no more than £200 second hand now. It will do anything an inverter MIG will really and is an absolute doddle to use. Certainly not useless.

R Tech's entry level invertor based MIG is sub £400 - shop about a bit and you will purchase a no name brand invertor based machine for sub £250


Now 20mm plate with a 185 Amp MIG - that really is smelly stuff you are talking - but I'm not on here to do battle with you - just if you are going to give advice make sure it well researched, accurate, fully founded and genuinely assists & helps others rather than misleading them.

[Darkspeed]

The OP has already decided on his R-Tech 180 Invertor - so has a pretty good budget to work with and the machine spec looks like its a nice capable unit.

My advice on gas - I use BOC Argoshield light and always have good results with it - On my old Clarke 185E I like to use 0.6 wire it just works really well as I seldom go more than 3mm steel thickness. Mask wise I have a Lincoln (Viking)which is almost half your welder budget but I would say that £90-100 on the helmet will pay for itself. Prep is the key. Welding time is pretty much 90% prep and 10% welding.

20mm plate butt with a 185 ? - 30-40 Amps / mm so about 5mm thick as a single pass - prep with a 45 angle to a 4mm root and a 1.5mm gap first pass will put the heat in and form the pass to go with up to 10 further passes which will give the heat to provide the penetration as the passes build - depending on the weld length it may well give the welder a pounding on the duty cycle but if you needed to weld something that big together there are ways. A 10mm pass through a double 45 one side 10mm deep 3 passes and then 3 passes on the other. 90 T - root and two sets of caps 6 passes.