Charlie's Echo/Madam Mayhem - glacial Bedford RL project

[gtviva]

I should think you have some genuine pistons and some aftermarket, the slots in the skirt let you have a much tighter piston in the bore to stop piston slap and the extra bottom ring was used to reduce oil consumption, most of the engines from the 50s/60s used that style

Nice looking bearings and crank though, it doesn't look like its done much since the engine work was carried out

[Tamber]

That makes sense, then. First time I've seen those slots, though, so I've learnt something new today.

And the bearings really do look almost brand new; I was expecting to see a decent bit of wear, but it must've had the engine work done and then ended up getting parked. It's very interesting, and quite fun to speculate about, but I wish I knew the actual answers.

[Zelandeth]

Stupid question time...based purely on some visual similarities and 15 year old memories.

Are there any shared bits between this engine and that used in the Y series as used in coaches etc in the 70s?

Looks quite similar...though I'm used to seeing that installed in rather a different configuration with quite a bit more assorted stuff around it...and last time I was crawling around John's coach was in 2005 I think...so the memory is a bit rusty as best.

[PhilA]

Mm, you gonna see the same problems I'm trying to figure with fuel injection- re: siamesed intake ports

The same as mine, it's hardly a screamer of an engine but still, odd problems because of it. I was eyeballing Canems' system because they managed to figure out the nonsense on the A-series, but that's the same as mine in terms of port overlap, being a 6 yours got asymmetrical intake overlap.

--Phil

[Zelandeth]

Any reason old school single point injection couldn't work? Single big old injector just spraying fuel down the inlet.

Sounds crude...and looks it, but I've been hugely surprised by how well it can work if set up right.

On the Lada is doesn't make any odds to outright power, but it adds a huge amount of low and mid range torque which makes the engine feel massively more willing.

Also has the advantage of just having the ability to turn the key and go, irrespective of temperature etc. This system (GM sourced ironically) handles all the ignition side of things too.

From what I've read similar systems weren't uncommon in the US, so finding a suitable throttle body shouldn't be too difficult as they like their big engines. The a Megasquirt ECU, handful of sensors and an adaptor plate to bolt the throttle body to your intake manifold...off you go.

[Tamber]

It would work, but I'm not a great fan of single-point injection; just 'feels' a bit like a bodge, to me. (That could be because my main experience with SPI is the system in my car, which is a VW factory-fitted bodge so they could use up the carb manifolds for the last year of production of the Favorit; and then they went to MPI on the same engine in the Felicia. It's a pain in the ass until the coolant starts to get a little warmth in it.) But at least it's better than a carb.

I've already got my mind set on building a manifold, though, mostly for the sake of doing it; and I've got a throttle-body that I'm going to try (It's a bit bigger than the stock carb, at 52mm compared to the nominal 48mm of the 48VIR. Some lazy searching shows that should be enough for 21m³/minute, and some lazy-maths says that ~5 litres spinning at 3000rpm would displace 15m³/minute, if I've got it right.)

And, honestly, the factory Bedford manifold is adequate for the 50s, but it really needs the heating from the exhaust manifold hot-spot or fuel puddles under the carb and then trickles down into cylinders 3 & 4. Not ideal. It'd probably be fine for just moving air, if I wanted to weld injector bungs into it; but I don't really want to hack it up like that.

Either way, I've already got an ECU (TunerStudio-compatible, I think it's an MS2X equivalent), that's set up for 3 injectors & 6 ignition coils; I've got the throttle body (Off an MG TF, I think!); haven't yet gotten injectors but I've got it written down somewhere what size & connector type I'm after; got a list of sensors to get & fit... so on and so forth.

I'm aiming for turn the key, hit the button, and have it just start like a modern motor...

[Tamber]

Dec 2, 2019 15:41:32 GMT PhilA said:

Mm, you gonna see the same problems I'm trying to figure with fuel injection- re: siamesed intake ports

The same as mine, it's hardly a screamer of an engine but still, odd problems because of it. I was eyeballing Canems' system because they managed to figure out the nonsense on the A-series, but that's the same as mine in terms of port overlap, being a 6 yours got asymmetrical intake overlap.

I did, somewhere, have it worked out what the intake overlap was going to be, and I didn't see anything that stood out as too horrific. We'll see what happens when I get to the point of trying to fire it, I guess!

[dodgerover]

Would there be any point trying to contact the previous owners for any history? Those shells look like new though.

[Tamber]

Dec 7, 2019 20:48:28 GMT dodgerover said:

Would there be any point trying to contact the previous owners for any history? Those shells look like new though.

The history and previous owners as far as I know it goes something like:

1. Army. No records of it are held. The RLC Archive, who have the B-vehicle cards from the era, have no record of its ERM (Army registration number, basically). I even tried an FOIA request to the MoD, in case there might've been something, but no. This also means I have no idea of what unit it served with, etc. Don't even know when it was disposed of.
2. ??
3. LW Vass, in Ampthill; where it got the recovery equipment. (I might contact them, and see if they remember anything about it. I'm suspecting not, though.)
4. ??
5. Scott Brothers (Colchester) Ltd. -- The *only* thing I've been able to find in searches for this company, other than my posts, is in the 24 May 1984 copy of the London Gazette...
   
   
   
6. ??
7. A Bedford collector in Colchester, who had to sell her off along with a bunch of other wagons due to health issues (the Big C, unfortunately) back in 2012 or so.
8. The truck breaker's down in Clacton, that I bought the truck from. (Who, at the time I was buying 'er, said "sure, we've got the logbook." )
9. Me.

Those bearing shells really do look new, yeah. Makes me wonder if they were redone by the collector, as part of some maintenance, because the story goes that he bought her from being scrapped due to a dropped valve. It's all a bit of a mystery.

[scimjim]

Are you sure it was Army first? Do the RLC hold the RN/RAF records?

[Tamber]

To be fair, no, I can't be 100% certain it was Army first. But I'm guessing it wasn't Navy, by not having an ??RN?? ERM, and not showing any signs of being painted a dark blue at any point; by the same logic, I'm going to say it was also not RAF, by not having an ??AF?? ERM, and not being light blue. (Underneath the yellow, it's DBG all the way down to the red primer.) Obviously, these aren't hard and fast rules

The RLC hold cards that were previously in the Museum of Army Transport, so they don't cover *all* vehicles. Also, B-vehicle cards don't cover *every* vehicle from the time, because there were multiple systems -- of varying levels of detail -- used, sometimes overlapping as older vehicle records were maintained on the old system rather than transferred to the new one:

• Vehicle History Cards were used until ~1961; of which, apparently only the ones relating to trailers survive
• ...and they often provided the information that was used on Key Cards No.2, which were used until ~1968. But the RLC Archive only holds the key cards for certain letter-pairs, of which -CE isn't one.
• B-Vehicle cards were introduced in the mid-60s, replacing Key Cards No.2, and used 'til the 80s. Of course, plenty of these cards have been lost, and there were quite a few destroyed in an archive fire a good few years back. Plus, apparently records were often -- but not always -- destroyed when a vehicle left service; which is fine and sensible from the point of view of the people keeping the records at the time, but is aggravating now.
• MERLIN started replacing B-cards from '82 onwards, and by '89 apparently all vehicles were recorded in this system rather than on the cards. And the RLC Archive search uses data from MERLIN, so if 11CE32 was in there, it should've come up under a search for that ERM. Since it doesn't -- and since the company who owned it, at least long enough to have it painted up with their name on the side, went bump in '84 -- then it must've been disposed of before then.

All of this is a long-winded way of saying... I think it's Army, because it has an ERM that fits in an Army range, it's in Army colours, and I've not yet found anything that says it isn't Army.

In any case, all I really know is that she was ordered in 1958, ended up a field artillery tractor at some point, then at some point after that was sent to disposals and the rest of the patchy history begins from there.

[scimjim]

I didn’t realise you had the military reg number. I should have said I’m ex REME, so I’ve been around plenty of old military vehicles

The Air Force often had green vehicles - and I don’t recall seeing AF reg like the Navy had RN, I thought they used consecutive letters like the Army?

[glenanderson]

Lots of RLs were in the Auxiliary Fire Service, could it be one of them?

[scimjim]

Did AFS vehicles have military registrations? They were part of the Home Office I think, so could have had whatever they wanted at the time I suppose!

[Tamber]

Dec 8, 2019 18:02:20 GMT scimjim said:

I didn’t realise you had the military reg number.

Yeah, thankfully the Ministry of Supply plate survived on the chassis, because it was hidden behind one of the lockers; which got me some useful information like that.

Dec 8, 2019 18:02:20 GMT scimjim said:

I should have said I’m ex REME, so I’ve been around plenty of old military vehicles

The Air Force often had green vehicles - and I don’t recall seeing AF reg like the Navy had RN, I thought they used consecutive letters like the Army?

Fair enough! I'm trying to piece things together from -- often contradictory -- information on the web. And it certainly seems like "the way things *should* be" and "the way things actually were" are two different things, in many cases.

Dec 8, 2019 18:55:04 GMT glenanderson said:

Lots of RLs were in the Auxiliary Fire Service, could it be one of them?

Hmm. I'm not so sure it's an ex-AFS wagon, because it's got a MoS plate showing a military registration, and because of all the signs of conversion to Field Artillery. (Supplement №5 to EMER F172. Interestingly, it's either been later modified to change a couple of things, or the conversion wasn't done exactly as the supplement details. There's another of those "should be"/"is" differences again. )

Dec 8, 2019 20:47:00 GMT scimjim said:

Did AFS vehicles have military registrations? They were part of the Home Office I think, so could have had whatever they wanted at the time I suppose!

From what I've read, AFS vehicles got civilian registrations, even if they were acquired via the same Ministry of Supply.

[Tamber]

Also, as far as the --AF-- registrations went: Flickr link: 64AF15

[scimjim]

Dec 8, 2019 21:12:40 GMT Tamber said:

Also, as far as the --AF-- registrations went: Flickr link: 64AF15

Not sure. It’s possible they started out with AF but there’s AG, AJ & AY here for example?

[Tamber]

Humm. Maybe that one I found was just a happy coincidence, then?

[dodgerover]

I wonder if Scott brothers continued to trade but just not as a limited company?

[PHUQ]

It's not an AFS cab, and they were all on civilian registrations.

Most likely Army.

Thoroughly enjoying this thread. I get to play with a couple of 30's- 60's trucks belonging to friends. Much like kids they are best not being yours, so you can give them back when they start being difficult... A Green Goddess is pretty high on the "want" list though. I was going to suggest you looked for a rotten one as a spares ship for the mechanicals but looking at how good the bottom end of the engine looks you don't need one!