Coupe? Hardtop? 2 Doors, No Pillars

[ironmighty07]

Still not totally clear in my own mind as to where these boundary lines lay, it's Coupe but it's pillarless so is called a Hardtop...however it's merely a preamble and excuse to post pictures of pillarless 2 doors!




There's certainly a tax premium to the pillarless models over regular 2 doors which I'm not wholly sure is worth it but they do carry a certain cool factor.

[ironmighty07]

True... although I am partial to a Rover P5 Coupe which is a 4dr...
The volvo is even more curious...
200 Series 2 Door Saloon/Sedan

200 series 2 Dr Coupe

[akku]

This causes some lively debate - in the US in the 60s its not uncommon for there to be a 2 door sedan (saloon), 2 door hardtop and 2 door coupe all on the same car.

Rover muddied the water with the P5 Coupe which had 4 doors. BMW and others have picked that one up again lately.

People often call 2 door sedans "coupes" because it sounds more cool.

To my mind a 2 door coupe has a lower or more sporting roofline than a 2 door sedan / saloon.

A hardtop is traditionally used to designate a car with no B pillar.

However... Some manufacturers mess with the "rules". Oldsmobile did a Holiday Sedan which had frameless doors but a B full pillar. Ford offered a "hardtop sedan" which was also a combo of frameless doors with B pillar. Both of these were only offered as 4 doors as I recall.

So here is Ford's full size (Galaxie) offering for 1969.




This is the 2 door sedan. Note that these were usually offered only in the low trim opions. There was no LTD 2 dr sedan.






This is the 2 door hardtop. This has a similar roofline to the sedan, subltly lower, usually the sedan and hardtop do not share glass like windscreens etc. Sometimes this is called a formal top or formal coupe.





This is the 2 door coupe. Also called Sports Roof. Note it lays lower and has less rear visibilty.

The differences are more notable from the rear




This is the hardtop





This is the coupe

Note that in these roofline options there is a 4 door sedan, a 4 door hardtop but the sport roof or coupe is a 2 door only.

I would have used the '68 Plymouth Fury as an example also because they have a similar thing going on but its really hard to find pics of the 2 door sedan.

Confusion isn't helped because when folk google the images that come back are not precicely aligned. When I googled "2 door sedan" it was bringing up 2 door hardops and 4 door sedans....

[akku]

The whole "coupe" thing does make me laugh when used on regular 2 door saloons. I mean, is my Morris Minor a coupe? Or my Fiesta?

[akku]

What this thread needs is some of those customs where a somewhat later pilarless roof was grafted onto an earlier car. There was "a thing" for doing that for a while. I seem to recall a Mk2 Zodiac with the roof off something like a Consul Capri Classic and some others, it started as a US led trend but we had come cool ones built over here

[ratchart]

The name coupe dates back to the days of horse drawn carriages and was a two seat enclosed carriage with seat outside for a driver. Something like this-

Most early car bodies were built by carriage builders so they adopted the same terminology. Landau, brougham and phaeton all seem to have disappeared from use but coupe and cabriolet are still common even if most people aren't aware of their origins.

[rattlecan]

[ironmighty07]

And Ford could jeep us all on our toes with the Consul/Mk Granada, with 2 distinct Coupe bodystyles and a 2 door saloon...







Still trying to find the Consul/Zephyr kustom with Coupe roof @akku

[ratchart]

And 1940s General Motors did much the same thing. This is a Fleetmaster coupe with a fairly conventionally styled rear end and less rear passenger space than a sedan.


And this is a Fleetline fastback, beloved of lowriders and nicer looking.


But Chevrolet called it an Aerosedan so is it actually a coupe at all? And does it matter when it looks so cool?

[akku]

I thought I had posted these already but the forum seems to be odd today







I've seen a similar one done on a Mk2 (but with glossy paint) but can't find a photo

Check this....













This is pretty trick! The 2 door Classic normally has a pillar...

[chandlergti]

Coupe

[andyborris]

Dec 1, 2023 14:20:49 GMT ratchart said:

The name coupe dates back to the days of horse drawn carriages and was a two seat enclosed carriage with seat outside for a driver. Something like this-

Most early car bodies were built by carriage builders so they adopted the same terminology. Landau, brougham and phaeton all seem to have disappeared from use but coupe and cabriolet are still common even if most people aren't aware of their origins.

My understanding is that "coupe" being the French word for cut, a coupe is literally a cut down version, or as the Americans say "chopped".

This may have come from horse drawn carriages, I'm sure some Victorian dandy asked for something "a bit more racy" when talking to his his carriage maker, but lots of French cars from the inter WW2 years where offered as chopped version of the more sensible saloon, much like a Rover P5.






But I'm equally sure that it really doesn't mean this any more!

[pseudonymous]

What, no Jag?!

[79cord]

I'll trot this one out again, though it's also a hatchback to confuse matters.
Pillared 'coupé' hatchback? much more common (& sensible with 2.5" thick doors & sides).
But sensible is boring.

[pseudonymous]

Dec 3, 2023 20:12:17 GMT 79cord said:

I'll trot this one out again, though it's also a hatchback to confuse matters.
Pillared 'coupé' hatchback? much more common (& sensible with 2.5" thick doors & sides).
But sensible is boring.

What a weird little car. Every single dimension is completely and utterly wrong. Like they told ten designers what they wanted (a sporty small coupe) and then picked random parts of each design and shoved them together.

Its the real world equivalent of the Homer. 



Still has potential though... 

[Paul H]

Dec 1, 2023 9:46:34 GMT akku said:

This causes some lively debate - in the US in the 60s its not uncommon for there to be a 2 door sedan (saloon), 2 door hardtop and 2 door coupe all on the same car.

Rover muddied the water with the P5 Coupe which had 4 doors. BMW and others have picked that one up again lately.

I reckon that Rover were fully justified in using the coupe moniker on a four door, as it was a chopped version of the regular saloon, with the roof restyled in addition to the loss of height.  Not so convinced by the modern attempts though - just sleeker four door saloons being called coupes so that the stylists' drawings aren't compromised by inconvenient things like headroom...  However the USA stuff does indeed get much more complicated!

Dec 1, 2023 9:46:34 GMT akku said:

People often call 2 door sedans "coupes" because it sounds more cool.

To my mind a 2 door coupe has a lower or more sporting roofline than a 2 door sedan / saloon.

Dec 1, 2023 9:49:08 GMT akku said:

The whole "coupe" thing does make me laugh when used on regular 2 door saloons. I mean, is my Morris Minor a coupe? Or my Fiesta?

Agree 100%, except add eye rolling alongside the laughing.  Where the roofline is the same as the four door, and it is otherwise identical to the four door aside from being a two door, then it's still a saloon. People trying to call it something else doesn't change that, even if it is the manufacturer trying it on.

Being ever so slightly pedantic & OCD about many things means that the incorrect use of definitions really bothers me.  Similarly when post 1930 cars get described as vintage...

[79cord]

Re Pseudonominous; 360cc & 10'x4' dimensional limits for tax reasons.

Edit: & it's still a 4-seater, which rules out any hopes of pretty proportions for human use.

[rattlecan]

Dec 3, 2023 21:20:12 GMT Paul H said:

Dec 1, 2023 9:46:34 GMT akku said:

This causes some lively debate - in the US in the 60s its not uncommon for there to be a 2 door sedan (saloon), 2 door hardtop and 2 door coupe all on the same car.

Rover muddied the water with the P5 Coupe which had 4 doors. BMW and others have picked that one up again lately.

I reckon that Rover were fully justified in using the coupe moniker on a four door, as it was a chopped version of the regular saloon, with the roof restyled in addition to the loss of height.  Not so convinced by the modern attempts though - just sleeker four door saloons being called coupes so that the stylists' drawings aren't compromised by inconvenient things like headroom...  However the USA stuff does indeed get much more complicated!

Dec 1, 2023 9:46:34 GMT akku said:

People often call 2 door sedans "coupes" because it sounds more cool.

To my mind a 2 door coupe has a lower or more sporting roofline than a 2 door sedan / saloon.

Dec 1, 2023 9:49:08 GMT akku said:

The whole "coupe" thing does make me laugh when used on regular 2 door saloons. I mean, is my Morris Minor a coupe? Or my Fiesta?

Agree 100%, except add eye rolling alongside the laughing.  Where the roofline is the same as the four door, and it is otherwise identical to the four door aside from being a two door, then it's still a saloon. People trying to call it something else doesn't change that, even if it is the manufacturer trying it on.

Being ever so slightly pedantic & OCD about many things means that the incorrect use of definitions really bothers me.  Similarly when post 1930 cars get described as vintage...

Wow anal

[akku]

Dec 3, 2023 21:20:12 GMT Paul H said:

Being ever so slightly pedantic & OCD about many things means that the incorrect use of definitions really bothers me.  Similarly when post 1930 cars get described as vintage...

Oh, I am a member of the Post Vintage Humber Car Club - gotta watch out for those 1920s cars creeping in... I'm also a fan of VSCC stuff and boy that would be easier (and cheaper) if they shifted their definiton of "Vinatge" to meet the more general "pre-war or thereabouts" yardstick.

I also find some of the broad brush terminolgy to be a bit irksome. But then I am also undiagnosed but generally supposed to be OCD.

Not every lifted car is a gasser. Especially if its a 1970s body style with a Jag IRS! Not ever car with low suspension (or air ride even) is a lowrider. I remember when anything with wide rear wheels was automatically "pro street" and so on.

The term vintage stuggles because its used to describe things which are not cars as well. And antique is used (in non UK countries) to define older cars but does not align with the British definition of furniture, object d'art or whatever being an antique at a specific age. So we have "vintage clothing" which comes from the 1990s and "antique cars" from the 1980s...

Its not just a car thing. I hear people talking about bands and almost "any band with guitars = heavy metal" and so on.

This is why I really have to filter my social media....

[ratchart]

I'm absolutely on your side with those. The mis-attribution of gasser seems to have started in the early 00s- only a select few people were into that style of car before that in the 80s and 90s. All the old magazines I've read would refer to cars that would now be (incorrectly) called gasser, as high riders, street freaks or street racers.

So this is a gasser (and a hardtop coupe)


and this isn't


Vintage appears to be a movable feast depending on who you ask. In the VW scene it seems to mean something totally different to the VSCC.