bstardchild
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,917
Club RR Member Number: 71
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Snow driving stylesbstardchild
@bstardchild
Club Retro Rides Member 71
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Dec 21, 2010 11:25:55 GMT
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This conversation is making me laugh, really... A ton of old wives` tricks for driving with SUMMER tires in the snow, when the answer is obvious... ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) Winter tires are made for a reason! ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/grin.png) You'd go down a storm on Pistonheads ;D 1. Winter tyres aren't a (legal) requirement in the UK 2. If you do want them you need to organise it late summer as the limited stocks and sizes go quickly 3. Winter tyres won't stop you getting stuck when other people have clogged the roads up getting stuck still using summer tyres that are close to the end of their life 4. Winter tyres are better on wet and cold surfaces but are a completely difernent animal to mud and snow tyres (M&S) Bottom line I couldn't get winter tyres in a size I needed in autumn so I did what I always do (tyres weren't illegal and certainly would have lasted another 3000 miles but the cars abilities and mine were seriously going to be compromised by the tread depth) so a shoved a set of brand new tyres on the rims A bit of common sense does the rest - even winter tyres are no substitute for common sense and a planned out approach to driving and they certainly aren't going to defy the laws of physics ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png)
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Dec 21, 2010 11:51:54 GMT
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See if you can guess which car has winter tyres?
As for keeping weight over the back wheels, I can highly reconmend it. Earlier this year it was the only way I could get my BMW to go anywhere. had 3 x 25kg bags of builders sand in the spare wheel well, that with the t/c turned off meant I didnt get stuck, even on hill starts
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Dec 21, 2010 11:56:24 GMT
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years ago i twoed an S class merc through a foot of snow with a mk2 granny we needed a bit of extra help to get the car round into my mates quit ehilly road so we went and got his bros 320i and hooked a chain on the front of the granny, bimmer wouldnt even pick the weight of the chain up off the floor, no wonder he hadnt been out in it.
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Volvo back as my main squeeze, more boost and some interior goodies on the way.
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Dec 21, 2010 12:58:11 GMT
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Has anyone added weight to the back of their car (assuming it's RWD) to increase traction? I'm driving a volvo 740 and it's dreadful in the snow, braking and steering ok but awful getting going. My 740 is fine, slithers around but keeps going. I try and keep the fuel tank full which is worth a bloke sitting over the rear axle. Huge tail out fun to be had on country roads too The throttle travel is so long and there's plenty of torque so it's quite forgiving; keep the revs low and it just starts moving gently. Not unlike most Volvo drivers in good weather ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/grin.png)
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Copey
Posted a lot
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Posts: 2,845
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Dec 21, 2010 13:02:41 GMT
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the thing with snow tyres is that they only really work on fresh snow, now that its compacted they arent really gonna make a difference
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1990 Ford Sierra Sapphire GLSi with 2.0 Zetec 1985 Ford Capri 3.0 (was a 2.0 Laser originally)
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Dec 21, 2010 13:29:23 GMT
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Sorry this is a bit long - or a bit obvious - but I hope it's useful to someone. Any thoughts feel free to quote/reply/flame/whatever.
I don't think there is any one correct technique - you have to use what's right for your car and your skill set. However, I do think the techniques fit into three categories - general driving, skid control, and getting unstuck.
In general driving, the most important thing to remember is that you have next to no grip - so you have to plan well ahead, building momentum before hills, and losing speed well before corners and junctions.
Momentum is very important - you need enough to be able to punch through snow and slush (whcih can be surprsingly difficult), but not so much speed that you lose control of the car. I find that 5mph on well compacted snow is a bit slow, 15mph can be a bit fast.
In conditions like these, more weight means more grip. Therefore, cars which have the engine over the driven wheels have an advantage getting power down onto the road. OTOH, RWD cars have the advantage of weight transfer when moving off, and of having the front wheels free to steer, even when the driven wheels are spinning. Perhaps the ideal for winter driving is rear engine/RWD - you have the advantage of both the engine over the driven wheels, and weight transfer.
Braking
Find out how much grip you have - on a straight, flat section of road, dip the clutch (so you don't stall), and apply the brakes. Be ready to let them off if the wheels lock - which they probably will. Now you know how little grip you have, you'll probably want to drive quite slowly so that you don't hit something coming the other way.
Cadance braking - repeated application and release of the brake pedal - can loose speed very well on compacted snow. In fact, as long as you lock the wheels on each cycle and repeat quite quickly, it's better than ABS (the highest friction is just at the point of locking so repeated lock/unlock cycles will stop you faster than either gentle braking or locked wheels, and ABS usually keeps the wheels from locking entirely).
On fresh snow, locking the wheels is the quickest way to stop, since snow builds up in front of the wheels and acts as a wheel chock.
Decending hills can be interesting, as locking wheels is very easy - I find that using a low gear and avoiding the brakes works well in keeping control.
Cornering
When cornering, avoid locking or spinning the wheels - they have little grip as it is, and if you use that grip for acceleration or braking, you won't have any steering ability. This is the time to use a high gear - it makes the wheels less likely to spin if you accidentally put a little too much throttle on - but choose a low gear to control speed in preferance to the brakes.
Accelerating
Be gentle with the throttle, but don't be afraid of a little wheelspin. If the car is creeping along, just keep the throttle open and you'll get moving. However, if the wheels are spinning and the car isn't moving at all, don't let the wheels spin - you'll just dig holes under the wheels and end up going nowhere.
Skid control
This is the one that gets everyone excited. It's not rocket science, but if you don't have much experience of skids then words are probably not much use, and if you do have experience then they will be no use at all.
The chances are that any skids that you encounter will be provoked by your actions - normally through either braking or accelerating too hard in a corner - so try to avoid braking in a corner. Do it on the straight beforehand.
Should you find yourself skidding, you need to steer into the skid (if the front of the car goes straight on, use more steering, while if the back comes round to the left, steer towards the left). At the same time you need to undo what cause the skid - so less throttle or off the brakes. However, it's very easy to overcook the corrections and end up going the other way - the only real way to learn skid control is to do it, preferable on a skid pan.
If you can find an empty car park away from prying eyes, go and have a play - but try to stay away from lamp posts, kerbs and other cars, since it's easy to end up sliding uncontrollably.
Getting unstuck
Perhaps the most difficult bit. Try to work out why you are stuck - if it's because you're tyring to go uphill, what abotu going downhill? If you're beached on a large ridge of ice, try to dig it out with a spade. If your wheels have dug themselves into holes, dig in front of the holes so you can get some momentum up before you hit the end of the hole.
Rocking the car is useful, but is easier in an automatic. However, the principle is simple - build up momentum in a pendulum-like movement to break away from the hole that the wheels are in.
Snow chains (or rope as suggested by popuptoaster) are good. Rally mats (aka traction mats) are good - they are rubber or plastic mats with either spikes or a ridges pattern on the back. Put them between the driven wheels and the road, and drive over them to get out. Before setting off though, tie them to the car so that you don't have to stop to retreive them - whcih can lead to becoming stuck again
A spade is good - as is a friend with a towrope and a 4x4 or even a tractor.
Finally...
Perhaps the most important thing by far is to think. You are very likely to get things wrong, but don't panic and try to have a way out of any situation - even if it is to drive into the hedge to stop. Plan ahead, and if things don't go to plan, try something else.
I found myself understeering towards the hedge yesterday after braking in a corner. By releasing the brakes, I was able to negotiate the corner. However, had something else been comng round the corner, I might have braked again - I'd rather be in the hedge than run headlong into an oncoming car.
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bstardchild
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,917
Club RR Member Number: 71
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Snow driving stylesbstardchild
@bstardchild
Club Retro Rides Member 71
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Dec 21, 2010 13:45:27 GMT
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Sorry this is a bit long - or a bit obvious - but I hope it's useful to someone. Any thoughts feel free to quote/reply/flame/whatever. <snip> No point in quoting it all Great post 11/10 - didn't find a single thing that didn't make me nod while reading - thanks for taking the time to write it all down ![8-)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/cool.png)
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Copey
Posted a lot
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Posts: 2,845
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Dec 21, 2010 13:48:26 GMT
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Sorry this is a bit long - or a bit obvious - but I hope it's useful to someone. Any thoughts feel free to quote/reply/flame/whatever. <snip> No point in quoting it all Great post 11/10 - didn't find a single thing that didn't make me nod while reading - thanks for taking the time to write it all down ![8-)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/cool.png) i will 2nd that comment!
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1990 Ford Sierra Sapphire GLSi with 2.0 Zetec 1985 Ford Capri 3.0 (was a 2.0 Laser originally)
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Dec 21, 2010 14:01:19 GMT
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Thanks! Thought it might be worthwhile since we have quite a few new drivers on here.
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Dec 21, 2010 14:12:00 GMT
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Thank you all very much. As many have said there is no substitute for experience and those who have that experience sharing it with those with little is definattly a good thing.
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Dec 21, 2010 14:28:13 GMT
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In conditions like these, more weight means more grip. Therefore, cars which have the engine over the driven wheels have an advantage getting power down onto the road I wonder about this; once you’ve got a tank of fuel over the rear axle and a driver in the middle of the wheelbase, most front engined cars are almost 50-50 weight distribution, shirley? Good post though, thanks
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Chops
Club Retro Rides Member
Don't touch me I've been somewhere
Posts: 454
Club RR Member Number: 36
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Snow driving stylesChops
@exodore
Club Retro Rides Member 36
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Dec 21, 2010 14:42:14 GMT
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Has anyone added weight to the back of their car (assuming it's RWD) to increase traction? I'm driving a volvo 740 and it's dreadful in the snow, braking and steering ok but awful getting going. I've got a 1/4 tonne of batteries in the back of my E32 and it's been excellent on stretched 40 profile ditch-finders. There has been 12" of snow on the roads here and it's got me to work early every morning with no great fuss (it does have 8" of ground clearance at the flick of a switch which helps a bit). It's an auto so I found it best to knock it into neutral when I'm stopping in slow moving traffic or the front locks up while the rear keeps pushing. My wife has a w210 wagon (e300 Benz) and it's useless. But please remember the more weight you add the harder it can be to stop.
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Last Edit: Dec 21, 2010 14:51:39 GMT by Chops
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paul6266
Part of things
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87' Mini City E
Posts: 172
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Dec 21, 2010 14:58:34 GMT
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same as everyone else really, easy on the clutch and throttle and honestly don't even bother using your brakes because you wont stop....just don't get ourself into the issue where you may have to brake...1st maybe 2nd gear and just go gingerly...oh yeah go easy on the steering (untill you get to a perfect sideways moment).....also i find if i get stuck i chuck a blanket under the wheels but ofcourse you need to take a blanket in the first place...if you have a van just chuck a bag of coarse sand in the back for good measure
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Dec 21, 2010 15:48:29 GMT
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the thing with snow tyres is that they only really work on fresh snow, now that its compacted they arent really gonna make a difference Er.... Either you have never tried proper winter tires, or winter tires in england are very different from winter tires in norway... I do my daily commute in a 77 Opel Commodore, with Continental studless winter tires. I have no problems stopping going downhill, or starting from a standstill going uphill. This is on either very compacted snow, or ice ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) Do that on summer tires ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png) Without wanting to step on any toes, I must say that driving in winter conditions with summer tires, is a bit stupid to me... Theres no law here saying you have to have winter tires, just tires good enough for the driving conditions on the road.. If you get stopped by the fuzz with summer tires on snow, there is a 800 pound fine ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png) Coughing up a couple of hundred every third year or so for winter tires arent that expensive ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) Especially if driving a retro car with the structural integrity of a soda can ;D Again, not saying this to be an ass (well, mostly not ;D) I just don't want people to go headfirst into any ditches, or into oncoming traffic ![:-/](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/undecided.png) Oh, and best time to get new winter tires, in my experience, is in spring, when the tire places are trying to get rid of the last seasons winter tires to make room for summer tires ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png)
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Last Edit: Dec 21, 2010 15:51:46 GMT by Deleted
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Dec 21, 2010 15:48:37 GMT
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My experiences thus far have been thus:
I live at the top of a steep hill which faces away from the sun - i.e. it does not melt during the day, freezes at night and is basically a skating rink.
Getting up it at low speed or from a standing start is a no-go. A neighbour tried this and ended up having an accident with her kids in the car and a car coming down the hill in the side of hers.
Getting up it with momentum carried from 1/4 mile away is fine, with some sliding in RWDs about half way up.
In my Auto E28, locked in 1st, on normal Apollo tyres with decent (6mm) tread - absolutely no issues.
In the beater E34 Touring Auto (bought specifically to keep the E28 and E39 from being damaged) locked in 2nd, and it's been fine. I started doing this with old 2mm Nankang Ditchfinders on, no problem. Changed to a set of Vredestein Wintrac tyres and to be honest, I'm noticing a lot of difference. This surprises me immensely. The biggest difference is that it wont drift as easily on empty carparks, but no better on the roads at all.
Because it's an Auto I'm driving, I've found going down the hill best with the brakes very gently applied. That way, increasing the force doesn't lock it up, and it prevents the gravity pulling you straight down. Oh, forgot to mention, the hill I'm on top of also has a mild S-bend in the middle.
I have noticed, the snow over grass over rock-hard soil verges on both sides are to be avoided - they offer no grip either going up or down, and are more dangerous than sticking to the tarmac.
Best advice I can give, is to buy a 'disposable' car if you live in a dangerous area. That neighbour I mentioned now has a caved in drivers door on their C5. But if the idiot in the Corsa yesterday, or the late-breaker in the Astra today, had made heavy impact with the rear of my £400 E34, well, lets just assume I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.
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Dec 21, 2010 16:45:58 GMT
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nothing else to add to the posts that have already been made other than when coming up to a corner you want to get the slowing down done before you enter the actual bend that way you can get round it more progressively gently easing the power on the amount of people i see braking as they are turning i guessing this is the modern car thing again were in normal conditions its ok to brake into a corner ,as retro car drivers most people on here i would think know not to do this but abs does allow people to get away with it except for when its icy or snowy and then it catches them out . as said in the other post don't rely on technology to get you out of trouble in a modern car most of it is more of a hindrance most of snow driving a basic old school stuff to be applied with common sense and the main reason the roads are so bad these days when we get adverse conditions (lack of common sense from the average modern car operator )
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Dec 21, 2010 17:13:01 GMT
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just got back from dropping the mum in law off home, its getting slippy again, back half of the truck feels like its not connected to the front even in 4x4, no weight on the back and a LSD has it all over the place especially when you try and stop, keeps trying to overtake the front if theres any road camber.
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Volvo back as my main squeeze, more boost and some interior goodies on the way.
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Dec 21, 2010 17:41:28 GMT
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I was told on a different forum that the rb1's wouldn't work on the Imp but they are truly unbelievable,it steers where you want it to go only goes sideways when I want it to and comes back into line with no fuss or drama,it even stops better on snow,I know brakes are a big no no but there are times (due mostly to other people in front) where the brakes are needed and with the snow tyres it digs in rather than glides over the snow,I'm sure the guy knows his stuff about tyres but in this instance he is wrong,I went into work on the Friday and on the way home much to my workmates disbelief I went up the duff hill which is one of the steepest in the valleys! it just drove up with no drama. When it does slide it lets you know and is so easy to control,I was a co-driver for too many Years than I care to remember so maybe sliding around in rally cars helps with knowing how the car reacts. To put it into context I have had very many cars over the Years including over 20 imps on various tyres but nothing comes close to the fun I have had this Year with the rb1's
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Indie
Part of things
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Wtd : Carlton/205 bits
Posts: 154
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Dec 21, 2010 22:12:37 GMT
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I have to say thank you to everyone who took the trouble to pass on nuggets of wisdom....lets hope we all stay safe out there !
If (for whatever reason) you want to temporarily hold the handbrake button / ratchet in then use a coin that just goes inside the handbrake lever on top of the button and hold it down with gaffer tape.
If your (manual) car is stuck then one trick that can work is to start the car in second gear without the clutch and use just the starter motor to move it - as it's quite hard on all the components involved it should only be used sparingly.
Oh and Merry Christmas Everyone !
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Dec 21, 2010 23:36:57 GMT
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don't know if its relevant, but how about diff locks?
the delivery lorry got stuck at work the other day trying to reverse up to the delivery bay. Tried everything to get him unstuck, digging the snow and ice out from under his wheels, cardboard to get him off the ice, aload of grit under the wheels, but nothing worked. Then i mentioned to the driver about diff locks. So he said he would try it. when he did try it low and behold he got out because where one wheel was free the other was still slipping on the ice.once the diff locks were engagaed they both turnt at the same time and he got out because one had grip and pulled the other one out with it.
sorry if it was completley off topic
nick
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Nobody dies a virgin, because lifes curse word us ALL
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