planning permission applications- a DIY job?

[Dez]

in further moves to get our ever expanding empire in to some sort of order, me and the 'tother half have discussed me building a fairly sizable (given the size of the house/garden anyway) workshop/garage at the bottom of the garden, with the view to me giving up some of my current rented space or moving business to somewhere smaller, or even giving up my workshop totally, working from home and just paying for vehicle storage.

or garden is approx 16ft wide, and 60-ish ft long. what i want to build is a full width approx 20ft long single storey wood or brick/wood construction building, probably with a single pitch or twin pitched roof for extra storage space. so basically, a big double garage.
then add a garage door to each end of half of it, so you can drive straight through into the garden if necessary, giving a one car storage space, a one car workspace, with a potential car on hardstanding in the garden.

the neighbour to one side has a large single garage with a very high single pitch roof, with the rest of his garden width taken up by a large shed and greenhouse, whereas the one the other side has a very sizable chalet/log cabin about 14ft square, with a further two sheds behind it, and most of the row of houses have similar sized arrangements going on, so i don't see it being too much of a problem.

but, how do i go about doing it? how detailed do plans need to be be? will wanting to build in reclaimed materials be an issue? where can i find what building regs i will need to observe in its design?

any pointers to were to get started will be very handy

[composimmonite]

Working from home / business workshop !
Definatley will need planning permission and change of use for property - which might not be granted.
Professional advice needed so visit planning office as first port of call.
To be honest unless you live in middle of nowhere with no neighbours then getting change of use for a domestic property to business use which involves vehicles and workshop will be hard to get.
Have a look here -
www.planningportal.gov.uk
Paul H

[Dez]

paul,
it wouldnt involve working on vehicles- I'm thinking a few years ahead and am looking at working on something else other than cars by then
it would basically be a small cottage industry type deal. the easiest way to explain it to someone who wouldnt understand would be blacksmith meets sculptor.
if it would be just too much hassle then id keep a workshop on as well, but would prefer it if i didnt have to.

the only vehicles involved would be my own personal ones, as i don't plan to get rid of them, and need somewhere to pamper them accordingly. we only have two car spaces out front, so would like a third space under cover for the A to live in.

ile have a look through that link now see what it says.

pog, you work in this front then, or something you have experience with doing for yourself? i can do some uneducated scribbles and send them to you when i get chance during the week.

before i do what real limits do i have in terms of what i can and cant do? I'm guessing the only real ones will be height and light? anything else i need to be wary of? cheers!

[Dez]

if ive understood this right-
www.planningportal.gov.uk/permission/commonprojects/outbuildings/miniguide

it would be permitted development as long as its under 2.5m tall (as it would be sited on our properly boundary), meaning no planning needed. sounds too good to be true?!

[composimmonite]

If you can get it classed as a cottage industry then "go for it". There are rules to follow but AFAIK main one is no customers comming to your premises - you go to them. Obviously noise, fumes, chemicals, fire risk all need to be addressed but all solvable.
Another thing is if you have a mortgage then you will need lenders agreement to run a business that requires change of use of the property.

Paul h

[Mystery Machine]

The planning laws were recently relaxed and getting permission for things over the next few years is a LOT easier and quicker than it was previously.

As discussed on the phone, you're already off to a good start becuase you have a precedent established via the surrounding properties. If you have any along your lane that are the sort of size you're after building, then even better (it doesn't always have to be the one next door)

Submit plans for as big as you want it to be...within reason (a four story block of flats would not be, for example) because building to a restricted roof height (2.5m) will be painful when you very soon want that all important space in the rafters that you now don't have. Building it right first time is cheaper than building it 'cheaper' to avoid the planning and then somehow having to suffer the compromise, or spend out more to apply to extend - making double the work for yourself.

Something like a double garage should be pretty easy to get planning for and in many cases, something like this will probably just get rubber stamped straight away with the new laws.

I'll speak to the GF tomorrow about this, she works for the planning inspectorate. I will find out more about all the new changes etc...expect a phonecall sometime tomorrow.

[Dez]

Nov 11, 2012 23:49:25 GMT composimmonite said:

If you can get it classed as a cottage industry then "go for it". There are rules to follow but AFAIK main one is no customers comming to your premises - you go to them. Obviously noise, fumes, chemicals, fire risk all need to be addressed but all solvable.
Another thing is if you have a mortgage then you will need lenders agreement to run a business that requires change of use of the property.

Paul h

half the reason for this change is its just getting too hard to do cars and make money from it with all the stupid rules and regs that cost money to adhere to and benefit no-one. that and its too much hard work for the money you can charge.

there wouldnt be customers coming here- thats already been discussed and with the market I'm aiming for it would involve legwork to get the product in the right outlets, so id already factored that in.

there would be noise, fumes, chemicals, and fire involved (wouldnt be no fun otherwise ) but I'm hoping that by constructing a purpose built workshop i can make it pretty well insulated and fireproof as part of its construction.

as far as i can tell the change of use/business thing will be the only major hurdle to deal with- but say for instance if an artist or sculptor can use their summerhouse in the garden as a studio, i don't see why i shouldnt be able to use what is essentially a garage to make things.

Nov 12, 2012 0:01:09 GMT Mystery Machine said:

The planning laws were recently relaxed and getting permission for things over the next few years is a LOT easier and quicker than it was previously.

As discussed on the phone, you're already off to a good start becuase you have a precedent established via the surrounding properties. If you have any along your lane that are the sort of size you're after building, then even better (it doesn't always have to be the one next door)

Submit plans for as big as you want it to be...within reason (a four story block of flats would not be, for example) because building to a restricted roof height (2.5m) will be painful when you very soon want that all important space in the rafters that you now don't have. Building it right first time is cheaper than building it 'cheaper' to avoid the planning and then somehow having to suffer the compromise, or spend out more to apply to extend - making double the work for yourself.

Something like a double garage should be pretty easy to get planning for and in many cases, something like this will probably just get rubber stamped straight away with the new laws.

I'll speak to the GF tomorrow about this, she works for the planning inspectorate. I will find out more about all the new changes etc...expect a phonecall sometime tomorrow.

I'm pretty sure the bloke at the end of the row has got a pretty large setup, he does building and tree work i think, and between him and the allotments out back, theres pretty much always a chainsaw/hedge trimmer/mower/strimmer/grinder/disc cutter or something equally noisy going within earshot, so iwth a bit of insulation i cant see there being any objections.
pretty much every house in the row of 20 or so has their entire rear boundary taken up by garages/sheds/greenhouses/other outbuildings, cos you can see em all from the allotments lane.

so, youre saying if i want to do something bigger than the permitted development thing, i potentially can, but id need to get planning to do it?
i don't want any wider- i plan to make it full width but drive-through so theres still access to the garden- or any longer- one good car length with a bit of room each end is fine, so say 20ft, cos i don't want to take up the whole garden. a little extra height may be useful though as you say, even if its just having a bigger pitch on the roof for some storage up top. it would be nice to habe 2.5m at the eves with a 4m apex, thats a LOT of room to fill with chod!

[Mystery Machine]

Yep, that's what I was trying to say...I know you're limited by width and only want a certain depth, but if the difference between no planning and a low roof, or planning application and a decent height roof, I'd go with the latter all day. My comment was more about the height. Gaining storage space within the same footprint is for winners.

I'd also look at maybe going a foot or two deeper (22') - it's a nice space that way. My garage at home is 20' deep and although I've got a workbench along the back, with a car in there I would ideally want a bit more if I could. Not a lot, but enough to feel like I could step back properly without fear of bumping into the car. Having the Rascal in there at the moment is amazing because the room at the back feels much more useable compared to having a 'normal' car in there.

I'll speak to Amanda and get the low down on the new application process.

[Dez]

Nov 12, 2012 0:32:33 GMT Mystery Machine said:

Yep, that's what I was trying to say...I know you're limited by width and only want a certain depth, but if the difference between no planning and a low roof, or planning application and a decent height roof, I'd go with the latter all day. My comment was more about the height. Gaining storage space within the same footprint is for winners.

I'd also look at maybe going a foot or two deeper (22') - it's a nice space that way. My garage at home is 20' deep and although I've got a workbench along the back, with a car in there I would ideally want a bit more if I could. Not a lot, but enough to feel like I could step back properly without fear of bumping into the car. Having the Rascal in there at the moment is amazing because the room at the back feels much more useable compared to having a 'normal' car in there.

I'll speak to Amanda and get the low down on the new application process.

all clear

if its not that much harder/massively more expensive (i have NO idea what these things cost), then yeah id deffo go for the height.

as for length, remember that half with the car in would be drive through though, so no bench at either end, and the A and pickup are both only about 15 foot long. id then have a space exactly the same size (8'x20') as the back room at the workshop, which is easily big enough as a workspace. ive currently got the back room set up as a toolroom now I'm not residing there anymore, and its a plenty workable space. i probably will bump it up to 22' or something though just as you say its a lot harder to make it bigger in the future, but I'm wary of using up all aimees gardening space! (it took a fair bit of convincing to get this hypothetically greed to to start with!) ile have to see if i can blag her that allotment straight behind us......

cheers for the help though, and tell amanda the same. speak to you tomorrow, got other stuff ive been thinking about as well

[composimmonite]

I'm currently looking into going downwards to create more storage space !
Worth thinking about - adding a basement to any proposed garage / workshop ?

Paul H

[dodgerover]

Going down unless you are doing a new build/ knockdown re-build is an expensive way of creating space, however sometimes its the only way, have been on 3 storey down sites in the city...

[whippet]

i did build for a mate of mine last year, we will call it a garden room, eaves no more than 2.5m, ridge no more than 4m, 1.5m from boundary fence, he was allowed 32m2 floor area,
built under permitted development , building regs passed, electrics signed off
the strange thing is most councils have slightly different guide lines even if you go off the gov web site,
Mystery Machine GF looks like a good starting point

[jo0lz]

I work in architecture myself so know more than a TAD abut this stuff

Planning Portal [others have posted the link] is the place to go initially to suss out what you can and cannot easily get permission for. This is the most relevant bit to your project
www.planningportal.gov.uk/permission/commonprojects/outbuildings

If you stick within the realms of permitted development it is relatively easy. You submit simple drawings and the local council planning dept rubber stamp them

Change of use [ to operate a business in the new building] will mean a planning application

First thing to do is sound the neighbours out
Initially discuss it with them as a large double garage, I wouldn't mention the change of use from the off, that can come later
If you end up up going the planning application route and the neighbours object to it this makes things a little more difficult as then the Planning Officer is duty bound to do more than just rubber stamp your application and it might need to go to the planning committee rather than just be approved by the Planning Officer.

Second thing to do is go have an informal chat with the local council planning office.
They usually have a Planning 'Duty' Officer available at the Council's Planning Department reception that any member of the public can go and speak to without making a prior appointment. Most councils you just turn up and have an informal chat.
They can then let you know more about the 'local' processes/rules as things vary a little from council to council..[even though they shouldn't nowadays.....as that is why our government created the planning portal]

If you want to see the relatively simple nature of planning drawings you should be able to find a search facility on your local council's website that lets you view submitted planning applications on line.
You can actually apply with pretty simple drawings
1:100 scale plans and elevations of the building with a few notes about materials
1:500 site plan
1:1250 OS site location plan showing the ownership boundary

Once you start building you will need separate Building Regulations Approval
Information on that process can also be found on Planning Portal
www.planningportal.gov.uk/buildingregulations/howtogetapproval/
www.planningportal.gov.uk/buildingregulations/howtogetapproval/howtogetapproval/bconsiteapproval/onsiteapproval

[tequilagrae]

I usually find that building regulations are far more hassle then planning unless you are paying someone to design it and deal with that for you.
Done through the council they are cheaper (think it was about £170) but the building regs officers at the council can vary from helpful to completely obstructive. I dealt with one who would say something doesn't comply with the regs but wouldnt say why it didn't comply so it was a guessing game. Others are very helpful and offer advice and ideas.
Now we use an approved inspector that costs more (about £600) but they are much more helpful, will help to argue your case with the fire officer and have the same opinion, rather than different people at different councils interpreting the regs differently.
The building regs needs to be looked at at the design stage, it is about the whole design and construction of the building, rather than just the builders.
The design should be signed off by building control before anything is started on site. Otherwise you might end up dismantling stuff and building it again if it doesnt meet the regs, or having to add things that weren't budgeted for at the last minute.
They will then inspect it at the end (and sometimes in the middle) to confirm that it is all built as the approved design and then issue a certificate.

[ianboyd]

There's one or two on the mig welding site, who make sculptures from home, that they then have to sell, otherwise they would be over run, this is one, but there are others

www.artinsteel.co.uk/

[Dez]

thanks for the advice so far guys.

I'm currently finding exactly what tequilagrae has said- planning isnt really the issue, even if i submit plans and they get refused i can set my sights(and the roof ) a bit lower, rejig them, and not have to go through planning at all. but the building regs are a curse word and dictate absolutely everything about the build! as noted, you have to start right at the start and design to them from the get-go. then theres things like security and practicality to think about on top of that.

the stuff about footings and oversite is pretty sensible and straightforward, it seems the biggest restriction is fireproofnessness really. i wanted to do a traditional build of brick up to 3ft, then timber above, but thats pretty much a no-no, unless i cement board the inside, but that is massively expensive- so much so its cheaper to do the whole thing in brick. it seems the regs really hate on wood cos its flammable.

so, it looks like itll be red brick, tile roof, fibre-reenforced concrete floor. buy in pre-fab roof trusses as buying in timber and DIY-ing them saves very little. doors will be my own design and construction.
my mate is a builder, hes costed it out at between 3k and 4k for materials depending on how much insulation is used (and i want lots- for noise as much as warmth).

i believe the net step is drawing up plans and writing up a planning application.........

[composimmonite]

I drawed the plans and submitted them myself for my concrete garage and they were rejected because of fire risk. I appealed on the grounds that minimum amount of timber (just facias) and then got a pass. Normally concrete garaged don't need planning permission but I live on a corner and the garage was within 1m of the boundary with the footpath. Council officers were very helpful at all aspects with plenty of advise. The timber facia has long gone (fallen off !) and currently I'm replacing it with white plastic coated galv steel folded into an L section. That way no timber now used. I used the same for my carport facia and would recomend it for garages, carports, sheds etc in preference to timber or UPVC. Cheap, fireproof and stays good looking. Industrial building fabircation firm cut and folded them to my specs for less than the cost of timber ! I would also say consider fabricated instead of pre made roof trusses if you want to use the area for storage.

Paul H

[Dez]

thats exaclt why i will be needing planning- i plan to use 3 walls of the garage as boundaries.

the company offer attic-room type trusses for around the same price as tri-bearing or finked ones, which i plan to use to give the loft storage space i want, once boarded out, so thats been taken into consideration.

apparently I'm allowed wood above plate height, so can do the weatherboards, eves and triangular end bits (not sure if they have a proper name?) in timber. doors will be a mix of timber and steel too i think. i don't know why they're so keen on upvc, it looks wibblepoo and is no less flammable than wood. id rather live with maintaining wood than having upvc to start with, i hate the stuff.

I'm very wary of metal in any construction, expecially at the top of the building where heat will collect, because of condensation issues.

[madmog]

Just something I've been looking into recently - you can't have a flammable material Eg wood within 1m of the boundary but if you are using wood it may be possible by making it fire-retardent

www.rawlinspaints.com/Fire-Retardant-Paint-Timber-&-Wood/c8_60/index.html?osCsid=79beb6253e30214aa4918797c9aa8ee9

but check with building regs people. Your council building regs department is usually quite helpful of you ask for their advice.