Tips and advice for Buyers and Sellers of RR-type motors

[nomad]

We've all done it - looked at an advert and thought "Yep - I can see myself having some fun with/in that"

After a couple of fun but *very* frustrating days (and 450 miles) going to have a look at a car which I would have been happy with but which I decided not to buy, I thought I'd try to put together some positive lessons.
Feel free to learn from my mistakes, please post any do's or don'ts so other don't make the same mistakes we have!

My Qualifications ? We had a (rather drunken) family quiz about 10 years ago when we were trying to work out how many cars I'd had.
We got to about about 30 cars + 35 bikes when we stopped counting. Add in any we didn't think about then and add in anything since and I think it's fair to say I've had a bit of experience buying / fixing up / running / selling.


Tips and advice to follow in the next post - watch this space...


Buyers (Q1)
What can a seller do (before or when you go to view your new wheels) to get in your good books?
Communication! Don't ignore my questions - if I'm asking it's because it's important to me and I want to know!
Either reply to my questions, or at least let me know you've got my message but you're hectic but I can expect an answer in 2 days etc.
Answer any questions I ask, don't just fob me off with "come and have a look"
Prepare the car :
I'm not interested in a valet and detailing the interior, but if it's advertised as "complete" "everything is here" etc, don't have some bits in the loft and some in the garden/garage when I come to view!
If you say ""engine runs" - I'd like to hear it so I know if I need to think about a rebuild before I start to use it!
Also make sure you have some fuel and a good charged battery (or jump leads). I'd like to check it cold before you start it up so please don't warm it up "so it's ready for me"
Take out the trash before I come to view. Using a "spare" car/van/truck to store junk useful spare stuff makes a lot of sense but I don't want to have to shift bin-bags out of the boot before I can check if the floor needs welding.



Buyers (Q2)
What has happened to you in the past to spoil or stop what looked like a done deal / what should sellers avoid doing?
Seeing adverts "must sell in the next 2 days or it gets fragged". What - you won the lottery 2 days ago and the first thing you did was buy a new car? How else do you get so little time to sell a car?
- I've seen a few potential motors listed like this but I know I can't arrange a daytrip and then get it collected in 2 days (a 500 mile round trip to view a car isn't unusual - but I like a weeks notice so I can find someone to look after the pets then arrange a mini-tour to pick up/drop off stuff, catch up with mates on the way past etc).
Sellers asking over-optimistic prices (so inflated that you don't even ring up even though you'd like the car) - seller then weighs the car in for scrap as "nobody wanted it"
Sellers being vague "just turn up and see if it's what you want".
If it's a 500 mile trip for me and I ask if you have the V5 / will it start / will it drive around the block, I want "Yes" or "No" answers - but any extra info is good.
Car is not what you expected? Did you let the seller know what you were expecting?
My latest? Recently went to view a car listed as "have had the engine running"
I need it to drive 200 yards so if I get it delivered, we can get it off the flatbed and around a couple of tight corners and up a slope into the workshop.
I turned up hoping to hear the engine (V6) running and to try moving it a few yards to check if the autobox and drivetrain was working / look for seized brakes etc.
What I found was the carb off the car ("so it doesn't get stolen"), some plugleads missing, others hanging loose ("I was going to get a new set made up"), no battery, and a jerry-can working as a temporary fueltank as the main tank was gummed up. The jerry-can made sense, the other bits broke the deal for me


Sellers (Q3)
What can a buyer do (before or when they come to view the motor) to get in your good books?
Communication! Let me know ASAP if something comes up and you think you can't make the arranged time & date.
I can be very flexible if you need to change the plans, especially if you give me good reason and let me know in plenty of time so I don't waste an evening waiting in for you.
Ask any questions that are important to you. If you want XYZ options and mine has ABC (petrol/ diesel/ bosch/ lucas/ carb/ Efi/ Auto/ Manual, etc), you can have a think before wasting your time and mine arranging a viewing.


Sellers (Q4)
What has happened to you in the past to spoil or stop what looked like a done deal / what should buyers avoid doing?
Communication! Asking me to stop in so you can view / move stuff out the way so you can collect the car / asking me to take it for an MOT may be ok - but then either changing your mind at the last minute or just not turning up isn't.

Promise the earth, then fail to deliver.
My worst personal experiences?
I got a phone call at 11pm when I was selling a car, seller sounded genuine and deperate "mines just been stolen and burnt out - I need a car tomorrow - I like yours and can pay full asking price in cash if you can deliver tonite"
Sounds too good to be true? It was! I drove the car to the far side of town, buyer came out the house, had a very quick look at the car under yellow streetlights (never the best way to view a motor) and the first words were "I'm not paying full price for that"
The other one (a long time ago - before mobiles) I had bought a new car, was moving to a new house, had keys but no light or power connected yet. Had parked the old car at the new house while it was up for sale.
Had a buyer ring up "can I view tonite - will be along at 7pm" Fine, I went and waited in the (unlit & cold) house, gave up after a couple of hours and went home.
Got a phone call a couple of days later "my mate was giving me a lift but he got called into work - I'm still keen - not a timewaster - Honest! - is it ok to view tonite?" Deja-vue anyone? I eventually gave up waiting and went home.
Cheeky monkey had the nerve to ring back a week later - "If it's still for sale - will you drop the price" It still hurts that I scrapped a working Viva with MOT rather than waste more time with idiots.
Spot the pattern? If anyone says "I'm not a timewaster" to me now, it sets BIG alarm bells ringing.

Ebay. Haggling after winning my car/bike. If I want to haggle I'll advertise it on the web or sell it at the local carboot sale. Ebay SHOULD be simple - you make your bid - turn up with cash - buy the car. Simples?
I sold a bike ( a bit of a monster but road legal. FUN!), winning bidder turns up with a mate on nice shiny new bike. Not good - and it soon went downhill...
"I didn't realise it's got no electric start" (it's a advertised as a genuine competition spec off-roader with a numberplate - what did you think you were bidding on??).
They eventually decided to take it (Yippee) - he then asked for £20 "good luck" money off the price.


Obviously, the info above is just a guide and can be ignored if the need araises : bringatrailer.com/2010/04/17/28-year-uk-garage-find-1972-lamborghini-espada/

blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2009/05/05/coches-de-los-muertos-an-argentinian-barn-find/

Funnies below (if the links work )

www.google.com/imgres?q=barn+find+images&client=aff-maxthon-newtab&sa=X&channel=t13&biw=1042&bih=678&tbm=isch&tbnid=aTvHNxQNM9GI0M:&imgrefurl=http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp%3Ft%3D697764&docid=92L0TItx45RqyM&imgurl=http://www.demobbed.org.uk/images/xd403.jpg&w=819&h=552&ei=P0vcUe3OFsiw0AWAtYGoBg&zoom=1&ved=1t:3588,r:7,s:0,I:102&iact=rc&page=1&tbnh=180&tbnw=274&start=0&ndsp=13&tx=147&ty=27

[Hirst]

Some good advice up there.

I would add that the "if it doesn't sell in two days I'm going to scrap it" routine only counts if you're going to be offering it for more-or-less scrap money. Someone going to scrap a car in two days but still wanting a grand for it just comes across as a cheap ploy and I tend to avoid cars advertised like that on principle.

From the other side, I'd say that you can look up the specifications of more-or-less any car via Google in seconds, so there's no need to ring somebody up and things like "is it rear wheel drive" or "is it good on fuel". Also if you want it at a good price, you're better off trying to endear yourself to the seller rather than insult them with infuriating questions like "what is your best price" (before you've even turned up).

[craig1010cc]

One of my mates has a good rule when selling cars. If someone tries to haggle on the phone before seeing it, he stops them and tells them that if they agree a reduced price on the phone, they are then welcome to come and view/test drive but there is no more haggling. That price agreed on the phone or walk away

[fred]

''Communication''
thats the key,
I have emailed a guy on Ebay 5 times about his Pontiac, nothing

every car Ive sold on the bay of Evil Ive gone into overdrive on the description
and STILL people do not read it,
had a guy come when I sold my Beemer, ''the display is pixelated''
'Yes it was in my description mate'
'I didnt read all of that''
go figure....

[hamps]

I hate it when you are selling a car cheap, it has a few problems so it's spares or repair, the buyer turns up and want's money off for the things that need doing!!!!! eh "mate the car is £1500 cheaper than any other you will find and that is for a a reason" it's "spares or repair"

Then they carry on "yeh but i got pay out for this and for that"

"What part do you not get"? jeeeeez it grips my curse word!

[jordanisace]

had someone turn up for a car i was selling recently, and argued that it would need money spending for an mot,so he couldnt offer me what i was after, despite it having 6 months test on it.

same as with selling most things, someone whos interested will turn up when they say, will ask sensible questions and wont mess you around.

[kee]

One rule i work to, if the advert is written in stupid language, avoid, it's probably an idiot selling it

[Nozza]

I have learned NOT to put your phone number on any adds in the forum, if they cannot be arsed to join and message you, its a good chance that they will be a messer.

[MK2VR6]

Buying and selling old cars is a funny one. After owning and selling a silly amount of cars over the last 20 years, I've found:
* The cheaper the car you're selling, the more idiots you're probably going to get.
* If it's a niche car then you may have to work hard to find the right buyer, unless it's a billy bargain.
* If it's a Golf, Joe Average wants it to look shiny on top, no matter what the price or age. Doesn't matter that it's 22 years old and the equivalent Vauxhall is likely to have its hanging out with rot. Golf's 'should' look clean according to most buyers.

I had an interesting experience with my current daily mk2 VR conversion. It ticked every box I ever wanted - black, 90 spec, solid, VR conversion and well-made banded steels. However, the paint is a little scruffy. After driving from Cornwall to Portsmouth to view, I aimed to knock about 10% off the asking price (which is what I normally manage). After all, most people understand that car prices are generally pitched with a little room for bartering. However, the guy would only round off £30 from the price, which was sod all. He knew it was a good looking car, desirable spec, the best colour and would (theoretically) be easy to sell. I made a few noises but couldn't bargain any more off. The seller knew I wasn't going to leave empty handed after such a long journey. I guess the moral is, if you want it enough, be prepared to pay for it. Regret is never good!

[surprisingskoda]

Jul 10, 2013 8:20:50 GMT craig1010cc said:

One of my mates has a good rule when selling cars. If someone tries to haggle on the phone before seeing it, he stops them and tells them that if they agree a reduced price on the phone, they are then welcome to come and view/test drive but there is no more haggling. That price agreed on the phone or walk away

I've got to the stage where I say "you can haggle AFTER you've come to see it". No exceptions.

What can a seller do to stay in my good books?
-DO NOT say oh but the carbs on this are worth £400 quid on their own. If you want to break it, flaming well do it then instead of wasting my 'serious enough interest that I'm here' time
-DO NOT say open to offers and then hum and hah when you offer something. CLEARLY you know how much you want, just flaming well tell me instead of [as above]...
Both came in one recent experience, got an email about an E9 CSL (ohreallyareyouseriousforscrapmoneycanicomenowwhenareyouhome??!!) it was local but guy took half an hour to meet me 1/4 mile from his house (on roads that I knew he could have just told me where to go) and it was a rotten shell with all the good bits destroyed or missing. Was told it was going to get scrapped if it didn;t sell, hadn;t been advertised, offered double of scrap, got told he wanted more, wouldn;t say how much, eventually I got frustrated after he said above about the carbs, said to him "look you are wasting my time here, you obviously know how much you want, just tell me already" and was told a laughable figure and refused to negotiate, and said if it didn't get that amount it would get scrapped, looked at him with two heads and drove off.
Sellers, please do not be like that.
-DO NOT write "no texts". I buy on average 9 cars a month, 50% of completely via text and I never see it until it arrives. Or if you prefer I can ring you when i find your ad, at 3.30AM?
-DO keep the car if I ask you to, when I'm about to set off to see it. Especially if I'm flying. I don't want to land in Midlands airport and get a text saying "sorry bruv sold the car last nyt 4got 2 tell ya". (Hasn't happened!)

What can a buyer do to keep my interest?
(Conversely to above) If the advert says no texts, that means NO TEXTS.
-DO NOT call me mate. I'm not your mate.
-DO NOT agree a price if you do not have any cash on you. You're wasting my time.
-DO NOT call dibs on it. I have no idea who you are. I'm selling the car because I want it gone and I do not care who gives me the money.



All the above the reason I seldom sell cars any more. Even to club/forum types. End user, I am.

[nomad]

Right, as this thread seems to have been popular and brought out some good suggestions (thanks folks!) I thought I'd spend a while listing what you can do as a buyer to improve your chances of getting what you want at a good price. (Sorry sellers - your turn will come)

Knowledge is power (especially if you start to haggle!) - how much power can you find before going to view the mighty beast?

I'm sure most folk have heard "Google is Evil", but it's still a very useful tool - use it!

What can you find out about the history of THIS car?
Why did the previous keeper sell it? How much for? When? What problems did it have then? Did it anything missing or a bootfull of spares?
If you see an advert for something you're interested in, copy the advert title and use Google to search for it, it's surprising what that can lead you to.
Has the seller mis-spelled something or used an unusual word ("Ferari" instead of "Ferrari", "Billy-Bargain" etc)? Search for their exact spelling and you might find they have advertised it on other forums (any related posts by them on there "It's broke - any ideas before I scrap it?" etc).
If the car something unusual, search for that (you're in luck if it's a Pink Quattrovalvole but can skip this step if it's a Silver Ford)
Any ideas about the history - can you trace anything that way? If the seller - or someone replying to their advert - says they were watching it on Ebay/Gumtree etc last month, log in and search there. Or Google "Ebay" + details for the car.
If the current seller got it for scrap value and is asking £££ for it, don't be afraid to ask what they've done to make it worth more or ask them to drop the price to what they paid for it.

What are the common weak points on these cars / what parts are unobtainable / what can be made to fit?
Check the owners club, talk to the old boys in your carclub/street/pub (it's a good excuse! I just found out last week one of the blokes I drink with was a mechanic in the early 80's - got some *very* good advice off him before going to look at a 70's daily)
Search the main forums (RR etc) for this type of car - any build threads or "I've had to scrap it because the gizmo broke - supplies of replacements dried up years ago"
Make a list of known troublespots, and check them all when you go to view it.

Get the facts.
I was looking at an oddball 70's barge recently. Rather that get compicated I found the dimensions, then found a modern car with same dimensions - and asked a few car movers for quotes using the modern car.
"Give me a price to move an Escort from A to B" is simple, "How much to move '32 Bachmann Turner Overdrive from A to B" will put them off.
Recently found a new site and it gives details for every type of car I wanted to check :
www.automobile-catalog.com/car/1955/1017110/goggomobil_ts_250.html
Dimensions, mpg, performance (ha!), etc.

Ebay specifics - time to play detective!
If you can trace the car back to when it was last sold on Ebay, you can often find a lot of info very quickly.
When it was sold / Winning bid / Number of page views / Number of bids / Any faults, etc.
Tip! Ebay wipe details of sales after a while, if you find anything interesting, print the page (or use Control-S" to save an image of the page onto your PC)

To the right of the winning bid will be a link "[ 123 bids ]" - click this to see how the bidding progressed (details below)

Further to the right will be the name of the seller and their "Rating" ("123 *" etc) - time to get tricky...
- click on this, and search for a feedback just after the sale date to see if you can find the rating the current seller left for the previous seller (this gives you an idea of of how the new buyer rated their sale, and also gives you the Ebay ID of the new owner!)
- click on the ID of the new owner, search for a feedback just after the date of the sale to find how the seller rated their behaviour (can sometimes be very interesting), also have a look at their other feedback for a feel about how they do business.

Below all that will be photos (maybe) and the original advert.
This can be very handy as it normally lists any problems, missing bits, extra spares included, etc.


A quick explanation of the bid history page in my example it shows :
Bidders:6 / Bids:12 / Time ended:11-Dec-11 23:03:09 Duration:10 days
Interesting - this was a long auction (so everyone had time to see it) and ended at a good time (a Sunday evening) but there weren't many bids...


What did I find out /was it worth spending the time?
For me in this case it was a big YES :
The old Ebay advert listed a few problem areas which would need fixing before it could be MOT'd (*very* helpful as the current seller had forgotten to list these in his advert)
The current seller paid around £550 for the car 18 months ago on Ebay and was recently trying to sell it for around £1500 (serious bargaining power here!)
There were 2,500 page views for the advert ( so lots of people were interested) but only 7 people actually made bids on it (so it's not desirable?) - so you have another argument why the price needs to come down...
As I was looking at an unusual motor, Google found the same advert copied & pasted onto a LOT of forums, which points to the current seller being very keen to get rid of it (willing to drop the price?)

Very much overkill but just for fun I had a play around and tried to work out how Ebay bidding had progressed :
Items with a 1 next to them were bids on 1st of December, 2 = 2nd, 11=11th, etc
I have used colours to group what I think are bids by the same person (eg a few on 2nd around 1AM etc)




Hope it helps, feel free to introduce yourself if you see me wandering around, hints, tips, good advice (and good ale bought out of what you saved by reading this thread ) are always welcome!

Cheers

[Deleted]

some good hints and tips there. sadly your average bod selling or buying a car rarely applies to pretty much any of them. that said I've had very little trouble in the past when buying cars or selling them had the usual tire kickers when selling projects ect but i don't think you will ever stop that . i have however learnt a big lesson in the not so distant past which will sadly impact on any decision to do deals with cars and friends the deal was one i had been warned against from other friends who had also had finger burnt but chose to ignore the advise as the person i was dealing with was "i thought " a friend now very much ex friend .

[nomad]

Time for the final chapter - thoughts for sellers

Having just sold what should have been THE simplest motor ever to be advertised, I've still had a fair share of "fun"

Make sure you have good pics everytime! I spent a while waiting for a nice sunny day then had a run to the coast to get some nice seaside shots of the car. Sunshine is always good news

Make the most of the advert text
The car has lots of plus points :
6 months MOT, some tax, good owners club, cheap & easy to get spares, lots of weak parts have been changed in the past few years - now mechanically sound, super economical (65 mpg on a run!), 100% reliable, ready to drive away.
A couple of niggles :
Some shabby paintwork, 1 tyre has a slow puncture.
Asking £300 ono

I put adverts on the owners club forum, a couple of car forums, and some "free" advert sites.
Ebay was an option but was keeping that as a last resort to avoid the many idiots who bid then decide not to buy

The ideal would be a call saying "Can I come and have a look - will bring cash"

It sold after just a few days, a summary of calls / texts were :

"What's your best price for the car?" ( 2 of these texts from folk who didn't even bother coming to look before asking for a discount It's £300 for a cheap road-ready econo-mobile with T&T FFS, how much cheaper do you want it
Just replied to the texts "it's £300 - bring cash when you come to view" - heard nothing more from either of them

1 viewer (local, friendly, found a couple of niggles on the testdrive but agreed to pay full price), shame he didn't mention until AFTER the testdrive that he had no cash and didn't get paid for a few days.
Did say he wasn't a timewaster and would be back with cash when he had it
I was actually very surprised when he rang back a couple of days later to say he had cash and when could he collect?

Someone from the forums who liked the car and was happy to pay full price but wasn't local.
He was trying to get a lift from a mate but in the end it looked like only option was for me to get him to PAYPAL money to me for delivery (to drive it 100 miles), then get him to give me a lift home. All sounded good - but lots of potential for problems.
It was all arranged for the weekend but the car sold before then...

I think the only lesson was to fend off the "will you take less" texts but it still wasn't plain sailing.
Be prepared for lots more interest if you are selling any boy-racer or oddball project.

Was a bit surprised to get asked if the diesel pump was Bosch or Lucas as I had made a point of putting a link to the 5-page build thread in the advert (which has lots of info on the engine and a detailed update about the pump)
Questions like this makes me wonder if the potential buyer is window-shopping or just too lazy to read for themselves
If it was me - I'd be looking at the build thread to find out if I was happy with the car and the way the buyer looked after it

Good luck !

[nomad]

[faker]

I have had my fair share of tw@t5 when buying and selling stuff. I had a storming Gsi vectra b a while back, really good shape, full mot, 4 new tyres, taxed, working multi cd, everything worked as it should, absolutely no faults. It was my own daily driver for over a year. Stuck it on gumtree for £1000, which was sensible money for what it was. I was inundated with texts - my favourite being "will you take £500" or "would you swap for a 106, no mot but mot ready"!


The wife drove a Subaru imprezza turbo for a few years, we sold It 2 years ago and it was even worse when I sold it. It was a silver uk classic, I was the 3rd owner, full dealer service history with 14 stamps in the book, again full mot with 4 new tyres, 2 new rear kyb shocks, and a brand new filler neck (all needed for the mot, failed on one rear shock and corroded filler neck to tank). Car genuinely was faultless. Put in the classifieds for £1650. I truly never met as many plonkers in my life! I got to the stage of asking the potential buyer ( term used loosely), "have you got the money and are you genuinely interested" as most of the callers just wanted to go for a joyride and kick tyres. Comments like "It's not really what I'm after" and "I'm really after a WRX" went down well! As did "I really want a Subaru blue one"! Is it just me or do some people get some sort of kick out of wasting sellers time.


About a year ago I decided I wanted a 1.9 205 gti as a daily. Had one 15 years ago and wanted another. I became disillusioned after viewing 6 cars, all of which were not as advertised or described, overpriced and required work. The best one I looked at had 147k, had lots of paintwork - had previously a full respray with further repairs to both 1/4's and sills, and both front seats were in tatters. This car was advertised as mint for £2800. To his credit, he owned it for about 12 years, and it was a pretty car, but it needed some care and it was about a grand too dear. I ended up buying a nice '03 Clio 172.

[dallow]

This time last year my transit died and i was desperate for a work van, no van no work.
I found a fiat ducato for sale , low miles , fsh and the seller seemed genuine. So after a hour and a half drive i managed to find the yard that it was stored in , i waited for an hour for the seller to arrive!!! so i wasn't best impressed .

The test drive was horrendous , the gear knob kept coming off in my hand!!! and after about 2 miles the temp gauge shot up past the red and it dumped its coolant all over the road. i was proper p***ed off waste of time and fuel. i was stood at the side of the road in a haze of steam and the owner was still trying to sell it to me!!!

A few days later i found a transit i liked on ebay, it was advertised with 4 new tyres , when i got there an hour early the seller was changing the tyres for the barely legal ones on his new van and i stopped him in his tracks!
my tip is always get there early to see if the owner is doing any last minute bodging

[jordanisace]

you cant say turn up a hour early in one breath, then moan that you had to wait for someone for a hour when you got there in the next!

i sell a few cars and i don't keep them at my house because i cant do, the place they live at is a good half hour from my house, turn up early and youl be waiting!

[dodgerover]

Tip for buyers - turn up when you say you will, if you get stuck in traffic, the neighbours dads pigeon dies or whatever let the seller know so they don't waste time waiting for you.

^^^^ surely you would have noticed 4 bald tyres before parting with cash if its advertised with 4 new ones and knocked whatever amount off the price?

[dallow]

Aug 10, 2013 21:34:27 GMT jordanisace said:

you cant say turn up a hour early in one breath, then moan that you had to wait for someone for a hour when you got there in the next!

I sell a few cars and I don't keep them at my house because I cant do, the place they live at is a good half hour from my house, turn up early and youl be waiting!

lol, i was waiting for that one, the bloke i was meeting was proper late! i would have been there early if he'd given me proper directions!, but i did manage to get to look at the van without him there giving me his piffle, he was a proper messer.

i like to be punctual which usually means i'm early and in some cases i've seen something , like someone heating it up or changing tyres etc etc.

[nomad]

Aug 10, 2013 22:31:26 GMT dallow said:

I like to be punctual which usually means I'm early and in some cases I've seen something , like someone heating it up or changing tyres etc etc.

Very good advice there

I've learned things by turning up early, other times buyers have noticed things when they've turned up early to look at something I have been selling