Clement
Europe
ambitious but rubbish
Posts: 2,095
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Jun 14, 2014 16:54:39 GMT
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It's fairly complicated but there's only one guy we have to 'find', that's the one whose name is on the Italian reg papers. The guy who sold it to me and the guy to sold it to him are long-time friends, so there aren't that many steps involved: - find that guy - get him to fill a bill of sale to the name of the guy selling it to me - sent that to the Préfecture, who specified they only need that document modified. No problems with anything Italian but that bill of sale which has no official existance as of now
Frankly I'd rather bribe that previous owner into signing the paper than export the car, it sounds less complicated. Especially since the last Italian (unofficial) owner bears all of the responsibility of that problem, and he's mate with the guy he sold the car to, additional motivation and all that!
The UK-reg lead is interesting though, wouldn't I need an MOT to get it registered there?
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Jun 14, 2014 17:15:51 GMT
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This is not sounding good at all, a friend of a friend... So explain to me how you bought the car from the unofficial owner? As far as MOT goes they do them every two years over there, they are called 'rivisione'. Did anybody mention a thing called 'il passaggio' to you, this is the transfer of owner document and costs €350 everytime you buy a car, and hence the trouble you are having. Where did you buy the car from in Italy?
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Jun 14, 2014 17:37:17 GMT
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It's fairly complicated but there's only one guy we have to 'find', that's the one whose name is on the Italian reg papers. The guy who sold it to me and the guy to sold it to him are long-time friends, so there aren't that many steps involved: - find that guy - get him to fill a bill of sale to the name of the guy selling it to me - sent that to the Préfecture, who specified they only need that document modified. No problems with anything Italian but that bill of sale which has no official existance as of now Frankly I'd rather bribe that previous owner into signing the paper than export the car, it sounds less complicated. Especially since the last Italian (unofficial) owner bears all of the responsibility of that problem, and he's mate with the guy he sold the car to, additional motivation and all that! The UK-reg lead is interesting though, wouldn't I need an MOT to get it registered there? Why not find that guy and get him to 'sell' the car directly to you?
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Click picture for more
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Clement
Europe
ambitious but rubbish
Posts: 2,095
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Jun 14, 2014 17:45:50 GMT
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I bought the car from a Italia-born French seller. The car was with a mechanic who was a neighbour of his parents back in Italy. He bought the car from him 4 years ago, got it exported outof Italy, and was about to register it in France when the clutch slave cylinder popped and then life got in the way. He didn't know that the mechanic hadn't registered the car in his name. I do not think he's a liar at all, for example he forked out €300 to get a Maserati certificate of conformity to his name (which is the primary reason why it's easier to get it registered in France in his name first).
I understand it's easy to make this situation appear dodgy and all that, but realy it's just a case of one guy being lazy, and the second unlucky.
It is a €2000 after all...
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Jun 14, 2014 18:20:38 GMT
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So the mechanic bought the car from the original italian owner (who has currently has his name on the registration documents) but never registered the car in his name in france? If that is correct, the mechanic is not the legal owner and neither is anyone else from there on, therefore he had no right to sell the car onto you or anyone else. The original owner is still the legal owner. If you can't locate him and purchase the car from him with 'il passaggio' in your name, you are in possession of a car which in the eyes of Italian or European law is not yours to keep.
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Clement
Europe
ambitious but rubbish
Posts: 2,095
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Jun 14, 2014 18:23:38 GMT
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That's pretty much the situation indeed Except the 'passagio' will be in the name of the seller not mine, for the aforementioned reasons. From now on, it's a beautiful case of wait & see.
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Jun 14, 2014 18:40:36 GMT
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Phew, that sure sounds very complicated !
I wish you the best of luck getting through all that paperwork and hope that everything works out as planned!
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Jun 14, 2014 18:42:29 GMT
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So the mechanic bought the car from the original italian owner (who has currently has his name on the registration documents) but never registered the car in his name in france? If that is correct, the mechanic is not the legal owner and neither is anyone else from there on, therefore he had no right to sell the car onto you or anyone else. The original owner is still the legal owner. If you can't locate him and purchase the car from him with 'il passaggio' in your name, you are in possession of a car which in the eyes of Italian or European law is not yours to keep. That's interesting Charlie; so it's different to the UK then? Having a car registered in your name doesn't make you necessarily the legal owner here as far as I know.
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Jun 14, 2014 18:44:07 GMT
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That's pretty much the situation indeed Except the 'passagio' will be in the name of the seller not mine, for the aforementioned reasons. From now on, it's a beautiful case of wait & see. Good luck with this, I hope you get it sorted. Have had problems myself with cars that are difficult to get registered and it is frustrating to say the least!
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Jun 14, 2014 19:40:41 GMT
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I sure hope you can sort out the bureaucratic mess. What a cool motor.
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Jun 14, 2014 20:16:29 GMT
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Am just going on my experience in Italy, when I bought a car there it was not legally mine until the passaggio was complete and in my name. 3 people have to sign the document, seller, new owner and a representative from the Italian DVLA, bureaucratic mess. Not only that if I remember all 3 of the people concerned have to be present in the office! In other words, if your name ain't on the passaggio, the car ain't yours.
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Jun 14, 2014 23:07:56 GMT
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Yeah, it's the same here. Your name has to be in the docs before you are the legal owner. The seller signs, you sign, the Land Transport Office (Philippine equivalent of the DVLA) signs, the police sign to say it's not stolen, then finally the whole lot has to be notarized by a lawyer. Looks like a bloody autograph book by the time you finish. Much fun!
Wish you much luck.
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Last Edit: Jun 14, 2014 23:08:50 GMT by georgeb
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Mark
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,097
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Jesus this seems like a terrible situation I think the UK route might be your best option!
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Clement
Europe
ambitious but rubbish
Posts: 2,095
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Jun 27, 2014 13:43:47 GMT
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I was about to put it up for sale, but a friend told me to call the Préfecture and kindly ask them for help. It happened. "Just send it again, with my initials on the envelope, the seller isn't necessarily the owner, it's a bit dodgy but I'll give it a pass. If it's stolen we'll know about it soon enough anyway." Dear LT from the préfecture of Haute-Savoie, if it works out, you'll get a lifetime of chocolate and flowers!
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Jun 27, 2014 14:14:32 GMT
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Good news!
Can just see the headlines: "Public official in does something useful scandal!"
Hope it all works out okay, I've got this bookmarked.
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mhuk
Part of things
Posts: 124
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Jun 27, 2014 14:19:59 GMT
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Sounds like it could be a happy ending! Great !!!
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Spitfire with a mx5 turbo engine
Merc W210 on veg oil running water injection.
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Jun 27, 2014 15:37:21 GMT
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Nice work Clement, looks like you have had a close shave there, the problem is basically that you have had the misfortune to require some involvement of the Italian ‘authorities’, which is a hiding to nothing as you would of expect of any similar banana republic/failed state-type nation. Luckily it sounds like it’s all coming together for you without needing to go and wave your arms about while wearing a pair of 400€ designer sunglasses which is how 99% of problems are resolved in Italy (the other 1% being resolved by sudden unexplained deaths).
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1974 Lancia Beta Saloon 1975 Mazda 929 Coupé 1986 Mazda 929 Wagon 1979 Mazda 929 Hardtop 1982 Fiat Argenta 2.0 iniezione elettronica 1977 Toyota Carina TA14 1989 Subaru 1800 Wagon 1982 Hyundai Pony 1200TL 2-dr 1985 Hyundai Pony 1200 GL 1986 Maserati 425 Biturbo 1992 Rover 214 SEi 5-dr 2000 Rover 45 V6 Club 1994 Peugeot 205 'Junior' Diesel 1988 Volvo 760 Turbodiesel Saloon 1992 Talbot Express Autosleeper Rambler 2003 Renault Laguna SPEARS OR REAPERS
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tdk
Part of things
Posts: 958
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Jun 27, 2014 16:25:05 GMT
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Good luck with the paperwork! These are fanatstic cars. I was offered a 4 door BiTurbo, 1987 car, which was owned by a friend. It was running OK and he only wanted £1000 for it but I don't have the patience for these. We took it to the Isle of Man for a few laps of the TT circuit and it was very entertaining.
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bstardchild
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,886
Club RR Member Number: 71
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1989 Maserati 222 bstardchild
@bstardchild
Club Retro Rides Member 71
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Jun 27, 2014 16:26:35 GMT
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Nice work Clement, looks like you have had a close shave there, the problem is basically that you have had the misfortune to require some involvement of the Italian ‘authorities’, which is a hiding to nothing as you would of expect of any similar banana republic/failed state-type nation. Luckily it sounds like it’s all coming together for you without needing to go and wave your arms about while wearing a pair of 400€ designer sunglasses which is how 99% of problems are resolved in Italy (the other 1% being resolved by sudden unexplained deaths). just 1%?
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Clement
Europe
ambitious but rubbish
Posts: 2,095
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So, I've just gone and spent the weekend at the workshop where the Maser is stored. Tore down the driver's side door to get to the exterior handle (which is broken and needs replacing), poked at the rust at the bottom of the door (pleasantly surprised, it's really just the skin that's holed) and drank beer.
I also managed to get the clutch master cylinder out, as I expected I don't have the right replacement part (ordered the wrong one...). Upon dismantling it to assess its condition I was pleasantly surprised too, because it was only slightly rusty and the seals were still good enough. Some flakes of rust had gotten between the seal and the bore rendering the thing useless, but after some cleaning and light sanding it was back to good condition. I then put it back together and on the car, bled it, and noticed that the Alfetta slave cylinder I used doesn't have the same diameter as the original one...
I can't tell you whether it works or not: dead battery. I had left the ignition on the whole night, I'd needed to push the car the day before and when it's off the steering wheel is locked. The battery has 3.5V left in it, hope I can save it because it's brand new!
I didn't bother putting the airbox back on the car since I need to repair it (several broken plastic parts), so I brought it home with me as well as the seatbelt tensioner I foolishly dismantled.I also kept the doorhandle, I'll try and repair it instead of just replacing.
Some pics later on, including one of the kitty resting on the driver's seat (very important that).
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