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I am just priming at this stage, and in all the other cars bodywork I have done, I just used newspaper and never had an problems - both in priming, and in top-coating. The newsprint paper over here seems to be fine in that respect, and does not soak right through, but I will check with some car-painter chums of mine as to if they use something other then paper.
What are other members opinions on the newspaper masking?
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eternaloptimist
Posted a lot
Too many projects, not enough time or space...
Posts: 2,578
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Don't use newspaper.
Lovely thing. My old man bought a five year old Morris 1100 in 1968. Newest car he'd ever bought - dead posh - then figured out it was a cut and shut and got rid.
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XC70, VW split screen crew cab, Standard Ten
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Jul 23, 2016 14:06:09 GMT
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A very quick update. I have not abandoned this project, but we are still in the middle of our winter over here, and it is just too cold for me out there at the moment! (excuses, excuses) I have acquired yet another one for my collection in the meantime. This one is a flame-orange 1100(Morris flavour), but is probably beyond saving as it is reasonably rusty. Structural rust is the problem for WOF's over here - not sure about the MOT's in UK etc, but I guess they are also quite tough on rust. The new orange one has large rust holes around the front window frame, and that IS structural, so to fix it, we have to use a certified panel-beater over here, which is flippin' expensive, so that won't happen I don't think. I bought the new orange 1100 for $250, from an English chap, as it happens. Hydrospastic suspension was down on both sides, so out with the trusty Dalek again, and pumped 'er up on both sides. A couple of checks during that process for leaks, but I think someone just let it down for a laugh. No exhaust(pipe cut off just below floor of engine bay), and not running when I got it. Not run for about 8 years they told me. Turned over, but they could not get it to run. Had fuel, but no spark. As electrical is kinda my trade during the week, it did not take me long to find a bad connection in the distributor where they had connected the dizzy wire directly to ground rather then via the points as it should be. Fixed that, reset timing, and she sprung to life right away. Rather noisy without any exhaust though. Clutch seized. I figured it was the slave-cylinder, as I have seen these freeze up before, but when I replaced that with a spare, the clutch was still stuck. Release lever goes out under pressure, but did not release. Lots of penetrating oil and movement back and forth, and it is working in a delayed fashion now. It was enough to do a quick road test to check that the box sounded OK and no nasty noises or anything, so I can tag this engine/box as a serviceable spare. I will upload some photos tomorrow. EDIT: Here are a couple of photos of it as I found her: The fella also owned the Morris Minor in the background of the driveway. That one was street-legal and his daughter drives it. I will upload some more photos tomorrow, but this one is probably a doner car more then one to fix up, as there is too much rust. British cars DO NOT like being left outside, especially for a couple of winters!
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Last Edit: Jul 23, 2016 15:12:48 GMT by Grogster
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Jul 23, 2016 21:52:59 GMT
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Good to see you're keeping going saving these old beauties. Unfortunately as we know, you can't save every one, but best one is sacrificed to an enthusiast like you to keep others going.
What's all this about a certified panel beater - can't you weld up your own cars there then?
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Hi there. Yes, you can weld up your own cars here, but ONLY if it is NOT structural rust. If the rust is structural, they you are NOT allowed to weld it up yourself - it must be done by a Government-certified structural panel-beater/welder - you can't do that yourself. So you can fix rust holes that are just in the bodywork yourself, including welding in a new patch etc, but if it is any of the A/B/C pillars or anywhere around the window frames or within 100mm of any door lock or hinge, it has do be done by a "Qualified" welder. In theory, that is fair enough, and sensible and all that, cos you should see some people's welding!!!!!!! Having said that though, the certified panel-beaters are disgustingly expensive - cos they know you have to use them for certain work, so they can charge whatever the hell they like. I restored my Dad's 1962 Vauxhall Velox, and it cost $500 per side to put a plate on the body by the rear doors. They also charge you about $150 to issue the certificate of compliance. You take that certificate, show it to the powers that be, they take one two-second look at it, and sign it off. VERY expensive business over here. Out of interest, do you guys not have to worry about any special requirements for structural repairs on your cars over there?
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Here are a couple more photos of the Orange one - pumped up so I could do the road test. The white one to the right is......just a little too far gone to save, so ignore that one, and this white one is NOT the one at the start of the thread - it is safely tucked up warm and dry in the shed behind these ones. Over here in New Zealand, we can fix this kind of rust here at home with your own welding skills: But we CAN'T fix this kind of rust without using the Government-approved professional welder people: ...or this: Both of those images show structural rust, and both of which would need the professional welders, and a certificate of compliance that they had been fixed correctly to restore the structural integrity of the vehicle. Both those shots above are the two worst bits, but they would be quite involved to repair. There are other smaller rust-bubbles and a couple of very small holes around the lower window-frame, and they too are considered structural rust, so would have to be fixed by professionals too - although, naturally, you would do ALL of them in one go, but I have not shown that last photo. Nothing is impossible with a suitable injection of cash, but I don't think this one is worth the expense. Still would love to hear from anyone over there in England, just what your MOT rules are regarding rust like in the images above.
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Last Edit: Jul 24, 2016 4:52:56 GMT by Grogster
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Davey
Posted a lot
Resident Tyre Nerd.
Posts: 2,208
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More out of curiosity than anything, surely if you don't take it for a test you could do all the work yourself before anyone sees the car and they would be none the wiser? They can't fail a hole that isn't there to start with ;-)
Over here anyone can do the repair which as you say is sometimes not the best idea when filler and newspaper cones into the equation.
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Last Edit: Jul 24, 2016 7:17:17 GMT by Davey
K11 Micra x3 - Mk3 astra - Seat Marbella - Mk6 Escort estate - B5 Passat - Alfa 156 estate - E36 compact Mk2 MR2 T-bar - E46 328i - Skoda Superb - Fiat seicento - 6n2 Polo - 6n polo 1.6 - Mk1 GS300 EU8 civic type S - MG ZT cdti - R56 MINI Cooper S - Audi A3 8p - Jaguar XF (X250) - FN2 Civic Type R - Mk2 2.0i Ford Focus
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Yes, that is an interesting point! And yes, you CAN do that, but you have to make sure that it is a good job and is fully re-sprayed in the same colour of paint as the original, and cut-in so that it does not look like an obvious repair. You raise an interesting point though, because the car is actually dead registration wise(the plates are dead/expired/cancelled), so yes - I guess you could fix the rust holes and then paint over it and THEN submit THAT end result for recertification. Good point. I wonder if it would be worthwhile after-all, especially if I got one of my panel-beater chums to do the welding for me. He can't do that stuff LEGALLY, as he is not Government-certified. There is only ONE place in the whole city that is certified for that kind of work, so as I said before - they can effectively price-fix, and you either pay it, or you don't get your car legal. Daylight robbery, really. However, as you say - if they don't fail it for that, cos it has already been re-welded..... Yes, the more I think about this, the more it appeals to me. Perhaps I will put this one under cover for a while while I think about it rather then strip it. I have her pumped up again now, so at least she is sitting at the right ride-height and looks like a proper car again now!
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Davey
Posted a lot
Resident Tyre Nerd.
Posts: 2,208
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Yes, that is an interesting point! And yes, you CAN do that, but you have to make sure that it is a good job and is fully re-sprayed in the same colour of paint as the original, and cut-in so that it does not look like an obvious repair. You raise an interesting point though, because the car is actually dead registration wise(the plates are dead/expired/cancelled), so yes - I guess you could fix the rust holes and then paint over it and THEN submit THAT end result for recertification. Good point. I wonder if it would be worthwhile after-all, especially if I got one of my panel-beater chums to do the welding for me.  He can't do that stuff LEGALLY, as he is not Government-certified. There is only ONE place in the whole city that is certified for that kind of work, so as I said before - they can effectively price-fix, and you either pay it, or you don't get your car legal. Daylight robbery, really. However, as you say - if they don't fail it for that, cos it has already been re-welded..... Yes, the more I think about this, the more it appeals to me.  Perhaps I will put this one under cover for a while while I think about it rather then strip it. I have her pumped up again now, so at least she is sitting at the right ride-height and looks like a proper car again now! Exactly. From the prices you've mentioned for the work surely you could get this work done and get the whole car painted for less! Well over here you could. Theb the repair would be totally invisible.
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K11 Micra x3 - Mk3 astra - Seat Marbella - Mk6 Escort estate - B5 Passat - Alfa 156 estate - E36 compact Mk2 MR2 T-bar - E46 328i - Skoda Superb - Fiat seicento - 6n2 Polo - 6n polo 1.6 - Mk1 GS300 EU8 civic type S - MG ZT cdti - R56 MINI Cooper S - Audi A3 8p - Jaguar XF (X250) - FN2 Civic Type R - Mk2 2.0i Ford Focus
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Hi there. Yes, you can weld up your own cars here, but ONLY if it is NOT structural rust. If the rust is structural, they you are NOT allowed to weld it up yourself - it must be done by a Government-certified structural panel-beater/welder - you can't do that yourself. So you can fix rust holes that are just in the bodywork yourself, including welding in a new patch etc, but if it is any of the A/B/C pillars or anywhere around the window frames or within 100mm of any door lock or hinge, it has do be done by a "Qualified" welder. In theory, that is fair enough, and sensible and all that, cos you should see some people's welding!!!!!!! yoeddynz what's your take on this then, I know I didn't realise it! Is it going to effect the Viva wagon?
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SO obviously over there, you don't have to get certification on structural rust repairs?
If you know how to weld, you can just do it yourself, yes? Even if it is structural?
Over here, you most certainly CAN'T. But as you say - that is only if they fail you for that rust at the WOF(MOT) test, and as it would not be getting submitted for that anyway, and the plates are dead so there is no testing history for it........
Nice one, my son. (putting that idea in my head)
Another question for you about MOT's over there: Do the garages record if a vehicle failed so you can't get it retested somewhere else? Over here, the WOF(Warrent Of Fitness) is stored by the Government motor vehicle department, and all the garages log into an area of that to renew WOF's. This means that if you take a car to a garage and they fail it, and you take it to another garage to try to get the WOF there, the 2nd garage will reject it outright, as the computer will tell them it was rejected the other day at the 1st garage.
Do you guys have any kind of rules like that with the MOT's over there?
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@ dogerover - these are only the New Zealand regulations. If you are not in New Zealand, you don't have to listen to anything I was writing. I was only saying what I have to do here.....
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Yep, you could fix all that structural rust in your own shed here and, as long as it's solid, the MOT tester would have no problem. Look at the panels available for the Mini - you could build a new one and it would pass if solid!
Our MOT system is online too, and searchable by anyone now. If a car fails you can take it straight next door to another tester without issue - no auto rejection. Obviously you'd only do that for something borderline like one tester saying the indicators aren't orange enough but it's your cash you're paying out for each test. Any major fail and the new tester would look up the history and check the fail points on the car straight off so he'd likely fail it too.
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Jul 24, 2016 10:01:05 GMT
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Jul 24, 2016 10:03:05 GMT
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Thanks, morris63 - interesting information. You are right about the replacement Mini panels - had not thought of them, but I knew of them. I think I won't be too hasty. These cars are starting to get harder to find in street-legal condition. I could pop the front window out, and chop the driver's-side A piller and fix that and the passenger-side hole without TOO much trouble. It all comes down to time. Something to think about. EDIT: Yes, the link works fine - thanks - was unaware of that forum.....
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Last Edit: Jul 24, 2016 10:06:52 GMT by Grogster
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Jul 24, 2016 10:49:51 GMT
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Love the ADO16, nice to see some more of these characterful little cars being resurrected!
Re. discussions on working on your own car over here, there is no specific legislation I'm aware of which prevents you from working on your own car in the UK. You're specifically referring to structural / safety issues, if you carried out unsatisfactory / unsafe repairs & an accident resulted you could get into a lot of trouble though.
There are undoubtedly lots of d.i.y. mechanics who complete poor quality work, I will admit that I've done work on cars on a couple of occasions which has transpired to be unsatisfactory.
The flip side of this is that I can name any number of occasions when I've put cars into a garage for work & they've bodged the job. I had put my Triumph Stag into a club-recommended specialist for an engine service as I didn't have the time to do it myself, driving back on the motorway my steering locked up meaning that I couldn't get out of the lane I was in, I eventually freed the steering with a huge effort. I lifted the bonnet when I got home to discover that they'd left a wooden handled wire brush under the bonnet which had got jammed under the steering column & was impeding it from turning.
My Dad, at nearly 80, has only recently stopped doing all the major work on his cars. One of his cars he restored from 'field find' wreck to a Concours winner so he knows what he's doing. Since handing over work to local garages he's just experienced a catalogue of misdiagnoses & poorly executed work. A hell of a lot of 'professional' mechanics don't know their posterior from their olecranon prominence!
p.s. I've often used newspaper to help with masking during touch ups & never experienced any problems. Perhaps some newspapers use paper which is more absorbent or have unstable ink in the print?
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Last Edit: Jul 25, 2016 0:10:01 GMT by MkX
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Jul 24, 2016 12:25:54 GMT
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Hi there MkX. I have been watching 1100 videos on YouTube most of tonight. The regulations were changed here in NZ because I seem to recall that there was an accident that was fatal or at least injurious to the people in the car, that was found to have been totally caused by inferior welding on a structural repair on a car. I seem to recall it was one of the A/B/C pillars which was just filled with body-filler and painted over, then they rolled the car at speed. When that happened, the body-filler fell out, and the piller(s) collapsed under the weight of the car, and the roof compressed down and the occupants of the car were killed or at least seriously injured - I forget which - this was quite a few years ago. Back then, there was no such restriction on repairs, and so long as you had filled in the hole, they would issue the WOF, but now, if they fail you because of a structural rust problem, you must get it professionally repaired so that it will remain strong in the unlucky event of a crash. All that is fair enough, and I have no problem with the theory behind that change in the regulations, but the cost is invariably passed onto the motorist, and with repairs like that, the price for the fix can just about be more expensive then the value of the car. EDIT: Yeah, I have used newspaper all the time for masking here, and most people do the same. Our newspaper is quite thick by comparrison to the paper-thin paper you get in some places, so I expect that is where those comments are coming from - fair enough though. I have sprayed several coats on newspaper-masked things here, and you end up with a thick layer of paint on one side of the paper, but it has never ever bleed through to the other side of the paper. As I say - must be the paper we have here.
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Last Edit: Jul 24, 2016 12:30:03 GMT by Grogster
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Jul 24, 2016 21:07:01 GMT
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[/quote] yoeddynz what's your take on this then, I know I didn't realise it! Is it going to effect the Viva wagon?[/quote] Nah this aint strictly true. Grogster- I have several friends down your way who have done their own chassis/structural repairs and have put their cars through afterwards for Re-vin or wofs with out any dramas at all. Up here in Nelson I along with 4 others have all done very very structural repairs on both full restoration projects and classics/moderns that have just come through with Wof failing structural rot. They have all gone back through the relevant tests at various wof and Goverment run VTNZ stations here with no fuss at all. None of us are or have been 'certified welders'. In fact the whole 'certified welder' thing is a shame anyway. To get a welding ticket you will go through a variety of tests depending on what level of ticket or type of welding grade you need a ticket for. It might be 'heavy structural tig, heavy mig and stick, food grade tig' etc. There is no real ticket that I know of that covers 'coke bottle thing rusty old car'. I know through my time at several engineering places that many of the 'ticketed' welders are fantastic at running structural grade welds on heavy pipe but when they go near a car they can only blow holes. Its simply an experience thing and as many people on this forum have shown us there is some fantastic welding being done by otherwise completely 'unskilled' desk jockeys. Much practice makes good when it comes to old cars. More recently I have have been doing many many car repairs on new imported skylines and rx7s etc. These are full structural repairs to sills, chassis rails and floor pans from either rust or forklift induced rail crushing (which makes me cry when an R34 comes in with this sort of horrific careless damage) Because this damage has been flagged at the Port of entry it has to be checked off by another local panel beater who has his ticket for checking off new imports. So I do the repairs, he has a look and is always happy, then the car goes in for its Vin process. All my local garages know my work and are happy as. Be it whole new arch sections on old 80's civic, complete new front floor on 90's hiace, building new rails on rotten Ford Transhits, new floors on 80's merc. They have all gone back to different garages for re-tests and no fuss at all. My advice to you is get your car repaired by your mate neatly and take its somewhere else for a wof. Remember that if the repair is covered in dirt and looks old the wof place wont know whether the repair was done last week or 20 years ago. Certainly old cars, at least up here, don't get flagged for a cert everytime someone spots an old rust repair. UNLESS it is an obviously terrible repair, a patch barely held in place by some dimples of seagull poo. Just as it is in Blighty, it is totally up to the tester at the time of wof to decide if the repair he can see is structurally sound or not. Also remember that in rural NZ, much like the UK, wof tests are taking place every day in the same places that the farmer gets their beat up old rusty hilux repaired at. These same garages are the places where the most rudimentry but solid as "she'll be right" repairs take place. Just relax and remember, its just a curse word old car, like my Vivas, and you live in NZ! Wow... ^ wall of text... Alex :-)
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Hi Alex - thanks for your post. I have a two-door Viva, and a brown Magnum too - I like my British cars. When I re-certified the 1962 Velox that was my dad's car, VTNZ who did the test were the ones who insisted that the repair had to be done by a certified panel-beater, and I could not do it myself, nor could any other panel-beater that I might know - only the certified one - only one of which existed in my city, so you HAD to take it there, effectively price-fixing the repair to whatever the hell that company wanted to charge you. Because the rego on the Velox had expired about 1980, the car had to be trucked into the city for it's re-cert. It was not a case of a car with the rego on hold, and you can just take that to any garage you like for the WOF test when you are ready - that is probably how I got caught by these extra expensive regulations. VTNZ would NOT sign-off on the car, without the special certificate of compliance from that repair company - which cost a further $150 to issue to me, over and above what the actual repair cost me. Talking with some WOF friends of mine, they say this is indeed how it has to be done IF the vehicle has failed it's WOF for a structural-rust problem, so then technically, I am not sure HOW you are able to get any structural repair past the WOF, if it fails for structural rust and you DON'T use a certified panel-beater and pay through the nose for that privilege. I know you do - you say so - and you obviously do a good job cos the garage are happy with the repair, but I don't know how that can be done officially. What about the COC(Certificate of compliance) you MUST provide with any failed structural rust repair? Technically, if the person doing the re-check does not sight this, and use the COC number when issuing the WOF, then the WOF is illegal so say the NZTA when I rang them about this. If the vehicle is in a crash, and the repair fails, the person who issued the WOF can lose their ticket, so it is very risky to the ticket-holder, to issue WOF's without COC's for WOF's failed for structural rust...... Having said all that, if you are chummy with the garage doing the WOF, I guess all they would have to do is "Forget" to mention on the WOF check-sheet that the rust is in fact structural, and then you or anyone else can fix it, they approve the fix, and issue the WOF. That is probably how you are doing it - you have to work the system sometimes!!!! Don't get me wrong - your post is very encouraging, and gives me and the little orange beast above some ray of light that it might not be a terminal case at all if I fix the rust up, but based on what I have been told, and had to go through before with the Velox, anything BUT certified repairs with a COC on that repair, is an illegally issued WOF - technically, it is a non-compliant repair, cos you have not been issued with the COC to give to the WOF re-check for a STRUCTURAL RUST repair. But then, these are some of the same people who write all the other Government regulations that seem to be designed just to make life difficult for those actually wanting to obey the regulations. People who don't care about the regulations, don't care about the regulations, so therefore, don't give a stuff about any changes to them.
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Last Edit: Jul 25, 2016 4:13:08 GMT by Grogster
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Cool- a fellow Viva owner then! An HB?
I see what you mean with the Coc but I think up here in Nelson its possibly more relaxed, which it certainly is pretty chilled out area (although I always thought it was very chilled out down in Duniden too) But I know of friends in Blenheim who have been through the process just the same without a fuss.
The garages that I have had my work inspected are often the Vtnz. Several times Ive had to have my work signed off by a 'certified' panel beater and had a COC issued, but only for new imports> The VIN test is where they can be incredibly anal and do everything by the book. Perhaps this is the same case for a re-vin but I have done a few of those and never had a problem. But certainly never any questioning about me having tickets etc. (ha ha...its the $20 notes I slip under the trim clips that does it.. :-)...joke.
I did get one incredibly anal wof guy a few years back pick on some surface rust that was around the old roofrack mounting holes on our family owned Nissan Sunny. It was seriously nothing to worry about at all. I tidied it up, painted it and it was sound as. He got all shirty asking who did the repairs and I told him I did. He settled down when I explained I was working at the time at a classic car restoration business. I think he was just having a bad day. Many places are getting shirty about any rust, 'rust' that those in the UK would laugh at! many feel its often just a personal hate from some of cars that are not all perfect and shiny so they get picky.
Yeah- I think you'll be fine anyway- just get the work done to the best standard possible by whoever you trust and then paint the repairs. As some others above have stated- if the wof tester cant see any rust repairs then they cant pick on the repairs! Sorted!
Photos of Vivas please! :-)
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Last Edit: Jul 25, 2016 8:28:43 GMT by yoeddynz
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